marcelo credited as the one to come up with seat belt control from the back?

[Based and White Pilled]

I wasn't involved in submission grappling in any capacity at that time. I was only 13 years old. I have no idea if Eddie's claim is true or not. I find it somewhat shocking, though, because it's an extremely natural feeling grip that comes organically. In my high school wrestling practices our coach would have to stop us from "reaching over the top" when riding legs (having your hooks in on someone's back) because the seatbelt grip feels so natural.

 

[nefti]

Sure the legends are good but they where legends because they where gods among their rank and file old school opponents. I started under manchild pothead who won a silver at black belts decades ago and I had to learn everything from DVDs, and everything I remember that piece of shit showing me Roger Gracie teaches is outdated shit.

You have your answer right there

 

[KenkaBancho]

Bravo popularized getting high and doing weird shit that white belts love.

To be fair to him, Bravo did popularise the truck and lockdown, the former which is part of the Danaher's back system. I recall Garry Tonon using it a lot.

Rubber guard is just horrible and a recipe for a knee injury.

 

[kenetics]

Judo guys back in the day had better ground work then the old school Gracies. Remember judo guys where athletes when the Gracies where street fighting morons.
Remember how Yoshida dominated Royce Gracie at BJJ in their gi mma fight?

You sound pretty ignorant lol

 

[dimmyfinster]

thank you, I rest my case, bottom line is not so much about old Bjj, it’s about who your instructor was. Pretty simple.

Most instructors 20 years ago were lot that though. They were not teaching the little details to fundamentals. My first teacher taught a famous UFC bjj BB , he was not a scrub.



My first class was 20 years ago shee i've had classes or live seminars with lots of instructors including Mario Sperry and Carlson jr.

I also think there's some survivorship bias going on. You only see the old school guys who still train. You don't see old school guys who quit, most of whom I remember having lousy fundamentals. Also old school guys are too old to speed pass. Of course they're pressure passing.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Most instructors 20 years ago were lot that though. They were not teaching the little details to fundamentals. My first teacher taught a famous UFC bjj BB , he was not a scrub.



My first class was 20 years ago shee i've had classes or live seminars with lots of instructors including Mario Sperry and Carlson jr.

I also think there's some survivorship bias going on. You only see the old school guys who still train. You don't see old school guys who quit, most of whom I remember having lousy fundamentals. Also old school guys are too old to speed pass. Of course they're pressure passing.

I don’t know what you call little details, unless you are 55 or more, 20 years ago you were a white belt, little details are not meant to be taught to white belts, at least to beginners, Anyhow, yes I agree that some might sucked , the overall level wasn’t that high or at least that broad, but you think every single black belt now is teaching amazing details? On big schools sure, you still have bad teachers everywhere. It has nothing to do being old school or new school, it has to do with being a good teacher or a bad teacher. If don’t know what your implying, Mario sperry sucked? Lol.. he might not have been the best at seminars, never been to one, but the dude was a monster and he created some monsters, just like Carlson. You think those Guys don’t have fundamentals down?

Speed passing like toreando? Rafa me des speed passing? May be just may be they had good pressure passing because pressure is the most important thing for fighting? Which 20 years ago was the goal of Bjj...

 

[yetanother]

I don’t know what you call little details,

Using seatbelt as an example since it's the thread title, teaching people how to use their head to lock it in place and how to hold on the seatbelt when their opponent is moving are imporant "little details". IMHO I would teach a white belt that, rather than have it take him years and years of rolling to figure that shit out unconsciously.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Using seatbelt as an example since it's the thread title, teaching people how to use their head to lock it in place and how to hold on the seatbelt when their opponent is moving are imporant "little details". IMHO I would teach a white belt that, rather than have it take him years and years of rolling to figure that shit out unconsciously.

seatbelt isn’t really old school, Marcelo was the one making it popular, in this particular case, the fact That most oldschool guys were mostly gi practitioners plays a huge factor, because a double collar grip is what’s used in the gi...

Before Marcelo, it was double unders what was being used as a means of controlling the back, well guess what, in this past adcc double unders came back full force... I guess they weren’t that wrong...

As to using your head to control, staying tight I think it covers that up...

 

[tekkenfan]

Speaking of basics do you remember Relson's seven sweep series? Shit was legit

its been a bit since i seen it 2008 is when he showed to me but people think gracies have no open guard reason did its kinda unorthodox compared to most but he makes it quite effective

 

[tekkenfan]

thank you, I rest my case, bottom line is not so much about old Bjj, it’s about who your instructor was. Pretty simple.

this.. i use to dislike fundamentals training with a certain bb who was udner pedro sauer not to dis pedro its just that his bb isnt really that good. and his students show it. then seeing relson show things and other guys really changed my opinion of things

rob khans a guy who has pretty fundamental bjj and is very very solid and he has produced tons of top grapplers in matt arroyo brian mclguahlin ad other good bbs

thats like saying ud not wana see how john smith shoots his single leg ad details n his grips cause its to fundamental basic im sure the way he does it will be different from your average hs or jr college coach

 

[tekkenfan]

To be fair to him, Bravo did popularise the truck and lockdown, the former which is part of the Danaher's back system. I recall Garry Tonon using it a lot.

Rubber guard is just horrible and a recipe for a knee injury.

renzo and guys were using lockdown before eddie was they called the scorpion they were doing it in 90s

 

[dimmyfinster]

I don’t know what you call little details, unless you are 55 or more, 20 years ago you were a white belt, little details are not meant to be taught to white belts, at least to beginners, Anyhow, yes I agree that some might sucked , the overall level wasn’t that high or at least that broad, but you think every single black belt now is teaching amazing details? On big schools sure, you still have bad teachers everywhere. It has nothing to do being old school or new school, it has to do with being a good teacher or a bad teacher. If don’t know what your implying, Mario sperry sucked? Lol.. he might not have been the best at seminars, never been to one, but the dude was a monster and he created some monsters, just like Carlson. You think those Guys don’t have fundamentals down?

Speed passing like toreando? Rafa me des speed passing? May be just may be they had good pressure passing because pressure is the most important thing for fighting? Which 20 years ago was the goal of Bjj...

First pass I learned was they Gracie gift. Taught by person who would later coach a UFC fighter and is probably knownby 75% of this forum. Today we know the pass works but only if you're better than your opponent. It wasn't untill Pedro Carvalho VHS series that people realized double under was better. The fact that Pedro had to say "Two arms in or two arms out" showed a lot of people had no idea.

Our even your torreada example. Today we use the Lo turn, or else hip/knee. Back then they were teaching to put both feet on the ground, as if that works on anybody good.

Or even the leg drag. Even a great old school teacher like Saulo had only rudimentary demonstration of it in his book. Today, thanks to Rafa and YouTube, pretty much all instructors have seen it taught with great detail.

Back then you might have a great old school teacher like Mario Sperry. But nobody could share his knowledge. Today, every modern instructor has seen the latest in technique thanks to pay sites and YouTube.


So yeah back then if Mario Sperry was your teacher you'd be fine. But most teachers weren't Mario Sperry and had no way of absorbing his knowledge, unlike today.

I may not have been a purple belt back then, but I know enough that were never taught details that are common knowledge now - not in beginner class, not in advanced class, and not in discussions either. They just weren't as widely known as they are now.

 

[spiderguarda]

Speaking of basics do you remember Relson's seven sweep series? Shit was legit

can you explain the Relson seven sweep series? Is there a YouTube video?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

First pass I learned was they Gracie gift. Taught by person who would later coach a UFC fighter and is probably knownby 75% of this forum. Today we know the pass works but only if you're better than your opponent. It wasn't untill Pedro Carvalho VHS series that people realized double under was better. The fact that Pedro had to say "Two arms in or two arms out" showed a lot of people had no idea.

Our even your torreada example. Today we use the Lo turn, or else hip/knee. Back then they were teaching to put both feet on the ground, as if that works on anybody good.

Or even the leg drag. Even a great old school teacher like Saulo had only rudimentary demonstration of it in his book. Today, thanks to Rafa and YouTube, pretty much all instructors have seen it taught with great detail.

Back then you might have a great old school teacher like Mario Sperry. But nobody could share his knowledge. Today, every modern instructor has seen the latest in technique thanks to pay sites and YouTube.


So yeah back then if Mario Sperry was your teacher you'd be fine. But most teachers weren't Mario Sperry and had no way of absorbing his knowledge, unlike today.

I may not have been a purple belt back then, but I know enough that were never taught details that are common knowledge now - not in beginner class, not in advanced class, and not in discussions either. They just weren't as widely known as they are now.

no one is disputing what your saying, Bjj evolves, and as people got better and found out ways to deal with certain techniques, there were people adjusting the techniques to deal with people’s defense, is just evolution...the Gracie gift pass was done by helio, the triangle was “discovered” by rolls much later, of course helio was getting triangled back then because well, people didn’t even know what a triangle was... now things like pressure body weight distribution structure, posture and things very basic, Those things old schoolers have it down... I’ve rolled with many old schoolers, way older than me, have not meet one that didn’t feel like a truck on top...

 

[KenkaBancho]

renzo and guys were using lockdown before eddie was they called the scorpion they were doing it in 90s

Hence "popularised". no one knew what/who danaher was in the 90s.'

I may not have been a purple belt back then, but I know enough that were never taught details that are common knowledge now - not in beginner class, not in advanced class, and not in discussions either. They just weren't as widely known as they are now.

I think among the other things that should be thrown out about traditional BJJ instruction is the idea that you should only learn from your coach and never anything online. there's just too much knowledge to ignore, and some of these idiot black belts are too unnecessarily stuck in their ways to develop.

Demian Maia was on a podcast recently and he mentioned that when he was a young grappler, he couldn't learn anything from e.g. Ryan Gracie and ONLY from Fabio Gurgel at Alliance. It was only much later in life that he met Rickson and re-thought how he used BJJ in his fights. Most importantly, he emphasised that we are in an age of UNLIMITED ACCESS TO KNOWLEDGE and it's something we should utilise.

To round up this post, I'd like to quote the great Bob Dylan (particular because of that quote about the ground being the ocean to a BJJ player):

Come gather 'round, people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
And you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'

 

[dimmyfinster]

no one is disputing what your saying, Bjj evolves, and as people got better and found out ways to deal with certain techniques, there were people adjusting the techniques to deal with people’s defense, is just evolution...the Gracie gift pass was done by helio, the triangle was “discovered” by rolls much later, of course helio was getting triangled back then because well, people didn’t even know what a triangle was... now things like pressure body weight distribution structure, posture and things very basic, Those things old schoolers have it down... I’ve rolled with many old schoolers, way older than me, have not meet one that didn’t feel like a truck on top...

To the degree that this is true, I don't think it's because of old school instructions or the way old school classes were run. I think it's more the following

1. Touch and feel come later. You can speed drill your way into a decent bullfighter pass, but a heavy pass needs time to develop. Old schoolers have put in time.

2. We're only rolling with old schoolers who are good. Lousy old schoolers have long since quit

3. Old schoolers can't leg drag or bullfighter. Too much cardio, not enough speed. We don't have a choice. Bernardo says this on his DVD's - "Do the over under pass, great for old people ! Stay on your knees don't spend energy on going side to side".

In my opinion, some of the "heaviness" related to technique is stuff that I learned only after the DVD/video age came out. The parts related to balance, weight distribution, that's experience.
But it's not old school instruction that makes my passing heavy. The new age of DVD's and pay sites and bjjfanatics and digitsu is way better for learning general techniques to be heavy.

As an old schooler myself I rolled with a bunch of old school guys - before they were old schools guys. And I just don't remember them being particularly heavy in passing or on top or having particularly strong fundamentals.
It's not as if they had great posture, were heavy, but just didn't know the berimbolo. I think there's a lot of "get off my lawn" stuff from old school guys.

I'm just saying give the new guys 20 years. If they're still training they'll be heavy too.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

To the degree that this is true, I don't think it's because of old school instructions or the way old school classes were run. I think it's more the following

1. Touch and feel come later. You can speed drill your way into a decent bullfighter pass, but a heavy pass needs time to develop. Old schoolers have put in time.

2. We're only rolling with old schoolers who are good. Lousy old schoolers have long since quit

3. Old schoolers can't leg drag or bullfighter. Too much cardio, not enough speed. We don't have a choice. Bernardo says this on his DVD's - "Do the over under pass, great for old people ! Stay on your knees don't spend energy on going side to side".

In my opinion, some of the "heaviness" related to technique is stuff that I learned only after the DVD/video age came out. The parts related to balance, weight distribution, that's experience.
But it's not old school instruction that makes my passing heavy. The new age of DVD's and pay sites and bjjfanatics and digitsu is way better for learning general techniques to be heavy.

As an old schooler myself I rolled with a bunch of old school guys - before they were old schools guys. And I just don't remember them being particularly heavy in passing or on top or having particularly strong fundamentals.
It's not as if they had great posture, were heavy, but just didn't know the berimbolo. I think there's a lot of "get off my lawn" stuff from old school guys.

I'm just saying give the new guys 20 years. If they're still training they'll be heavy too.

dude, of coruse, thats what im saying, you learn to "wrestle" or roll or how to move and use your body weight with experience, theres a reason a white belt even with the best instruction will not ever be able to translate his weight and put pressure the way bb do, because it takes rolling time for that, pretty simple.

Im 40 years old now, never ever been interested in being a bullfighter passer or a speed passer or anything, I pass mostly on my knees, I dont see whats the problem with that, if anything, passing low is way better now than passing standing, at least no gi, which is what I do.

 

[tekkenfan]

First pass I learned was they Gracie gift. Taught by person who would later coach a UFC fighter and is probably knownby 75% of this forum. Today we know the pass works but only if you're better than your opponent. It wasn't untill Pedro Carvalho VHS series that people realized double under was better. The fact that Pedro had to say "Two arms in or two arms out" showed a lot of people had no idea.

Our even your torreada example. Today we use the Lo turn, or else hip/knee. Back then they were teaching to put both feet on the ground, as if that works on anybody good.

Or even the leg drag. Even a great old school teacher like Saulo had only rudimentary demonstration of it in his book. Today, thanks to Rafa and YouTube, pretty much all instructors have seen it taught with great detail.

Back then you might have a great old school teacher like Mario Sperry. But nobody could share his knowledge. Today, every modern instructor has seen the latest in technique thanks to pay sites and YouTube.


So yeah back then if Mario Sperry was your teacher you'd be fine. But most teachers weren't Mario Sperry and had no way of absorbing his knowledge, unlike today.

I may not have been a purple belt back then, but I know enough that were never taught details that are common knowledge now - not in beginner class, not in advanced class, and not in discussions either. They just weren't as widely known as they are now.

tbh one thing u dont take into consideration is up till recently lots of coaches only showed basic stuff at their seminars certain gracie members wont teach their best stuff at seminars and only to his purple and ups who have been with him.

sure he will show a basic upa with a seminar but wont teach the real details on how to really make it work vs a good guy for instance or chaining it with an elbow knee escape ect

 

[tekkenfan]

dude, of coruse, thats what im saying, you learn to "wrestle" or roll or how to move and use your body weight with experience, theres a reason a white belt even with the best instruction will not ever be able to translate his weight and put pressure the way bb do, because it takes rolling time for that, pretty simple.

Im 40 years old now, never ever been interested in being a bullfighter passer or a speed passer or anything, I pass mostly on my knees, I dont see whats the problem with that, if anything, passing low is way better now than passing standing, at least no gi, which is what I do.

against guys wth good open guards i find it quite tedious to pass on knees today dealign with knee shields ect unless i an get to half with head arm control and jake shields my way through

other than that i prefer to stand

 

[tekkenfan]

Hence "popularised". no one knew what/who danaher was in the 90s.'



I think among the other things that should be thrown out about traditional BJJ instruction is the idea that you should only learn from your coach and never anything online. there's just too much knowledge to ignore, and some of these idiot black belts are too unnecessarily stuck in their ways to develop.

Demian Maia was on a podcast recently and he mentioned that when he was a young grappler, he couldn't learn anything from e.g. Ryan Gracie and ONLY from Fabio Gurgel at Alliance. It was only much later in life that he met Rickson and re-thought how he used BJJ in his fights. Most importantly, he emphasised that we are in an age of UNLIMITED ACCESS TO KNOWLEDGE and it's something we should utilise.

To round up this post, I'd like to quote the great Bob Dylan (particular because of that quote about the ground being the ocean to a BJJ player):

Come gather 'round, people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
And you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'

the problem with online is people today especially on here seem to not respect their instructor.

its weird like they dont care what eh has to say and will always say "well danaher or keenan is better so im taking his advice and game" i dont think theirs anything wrong with online but its weird how narcissistic people are in that youll get blue and purple belts going online watch a famous guys dvd and now think they are better than other black belts and their own coach cause they now know something that a top guy does that their coach doesnt lol.