Lyoto Machida vs Dan Henderson (stand up)

[ssullivan80]

Franklin had never been KO'd until Machida.
Thiago had never been KO'd until Machida.
Rashad had never been KO'd until Machida.
Bader had never been KO'd until Machida.

Saying it will be an easy fight is short sighted. Saying Hendo can't possibly be knocked out, given what Machida had been able to do to his past opponents, is also short sighted. Why Machida has so much success is that his style doesn't depend on 'going for it.' His style depends on the other fighter going for it and Machida doing what he always does.

I'm also not positive that 'clinch' strategy is the best for Machida. You say the 'in-out' gives Hendo his best chance... but Rampage's only success against Machida was clipping Machida when they exited the clinch.

I do agree with whoever said Machida should work on his sweeps. Putting Hendo on his back for a round will drastically ease things for the rest of the fight.

Franklin - Seen the canvas plenty of times and Lyoto was the first to KO him in the UFC, but he'd been KO'd several times prior and since, Franklin is hardly a comparison to Hendo in terms of durability........

Thiago - Who's that?

Rashad - I give this to Machida, KO'ing Rashad was an accomplishment

Bader - Eh....

Sure Lyoto "could" KO Hendo, but let's be honest....... none of his KO's are against an opponent nearly as tough as Hendo. Also, let's not forget that Lyoto has been KO'd and has been "rocked" several times in prior fights........ Hendo, I don't know that I have ever actually seen him sat down from a shot more than 1-2 times his entire career......

Truth be told, the only measurable statistic that exists for finishing Hendo is on the mat by submission..........

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I still wouldn't bank on Hendo's durability too much though. If there's a guy in boxing who have never been finished for 16 years and then got KO by a young upstart guy, then Hendo do have the same chance of getting KTFO for the first time in his career too. Especially against a potent counter striker like Machida.

 

[ssullivan80]

I still wouldn't bank on Hendo's durability too much though. If there's a guy in boxing who have never been finished for 16 years and then got KO by a young upstart guy, then Hendo do have the same chance of getting KTFO for the first time in his career too. Especially against a potent counter striker like Machida.

I'll bank on Hendo's durability far before I'd be willing to bank on Lyoto's chin! Of course, Lyoto is a striker capable of KO'ing anyone and that I don't argue. Still, I find it odd that there is this assured confidence in Lyoto KO'ing Hendo in this fight. I see it much the other way, I can confidently say both fighters are very capable of KO'ing their opponent, but with the same confidence I could only say one of those guys is more likely to get KO'd......... and it aint Hendo!

Again, I am not saying Hendo is going to KO Lyoto. In all honesty, I think Lyoto will likely win a decision. But, if the fight ends in a KO it won't be Lyoto's hand getting raised. Even a stoppage is far more likely to go Hendo's way........... IMO.

 

[Frode Falch]

its amazing that you can have that much punching power, and still have alot of people exaggerate you like that.

 

[KounterPunch]

That overhand is going to be near impossible for dan to land, as Machida is a south paw.

Say whuuuut ???

 

[Bay Area]

Say whuuuut ???

Take off your boxing glasses for a second. Does Hendo have the skill, speed and reflexes to land an overhand as Lyoto, the quickest striker in MMA, is coming in? Is Dan even a known counterpuncher? Or will he use his overhand coming in and moving forward like a brawler like he did against Bispbing? Most likely the second scenerio.


My stance on the fight is Lyoto will KO/TKO Dan in the second, or he will horribly outclass Dan for 3 rounds. It will not be a close fight imo

 

[KounterPunch]

Take off your boxing glasses for a second. Does Hendo have the skill, speed and reflexes to land an overhand as Lyoto, the quickest striker in MMA, is coming in?

Yes be because u don't need to be as fast or have cat like reflexes to beat a faster guy nor does he have to be "out skill" him.
He just needs to be skilled in that one technique and , baby , Dan Henderson's got that down pat.

Ps - yes I said baby !

 

[KounterPunch]

Not saying he's gonna win though.
The fights Machida's to lose.

 

[ssullivan80]

Take off your boxing glasses for a second. Does Hendo have the skill, speed and reflexes to land an overhand as Lyoto, the quickest striker in MMA, is coming in? Is Dan even a known counterpuncher? Or will he use his overhand coming in and moving forward like a brawler like he did against Bispbing? Most likely the second scenerio.


My stance on the fight is Lyoto will KO/TKO Dan in the second, or he will horribly outclass Dan for 3 rounds. It will not be a close fight imo

What gives you the impression that Lyoto is not hittable? He's actually been hit more and hit cleaner by guys who aren't that fast than those who were and he get's hit when those guys are coming forward and pressuring/brawling him. Lyoto has proven very difficult to counter, but not nearly as difficult to hit when being pressured/brawled. Oh, and yes, Henderson has fought someone as "fast" as Lyoto....... Vitor Belfort in 2006. Michael Bisping is also very quick on his feet. Hendo is by no means slow, in fact he's much quicker and more explosive IMO than either Shogun or Rampage and they both were able to pressure Machida and catch him with clean shots.

Hendo's had the skill, speed and reflexes to land that shot against a whole lot of experienced and accomplished fighter........ and every one of them knew it was coming! So in short, yes, Hendo most definitely has the skill to land that shot if Lyoto gives him the opportunity. It doesn't really matter that Hendo is not a known "counterpuncher", he's certainly known as one of the toughest guys in MMA and without a doubt one of the most accomplished fighters ever in MMA. Again, not taking anything from Lyoto as I believe he is in the top 3 LHW in the world. Regardless, I don't see any fighter making easy work of Hendo. In addition, don't make the assumption that Hendo is only capable of finishing a fight with an Hbomb/OHR. He's got bricks in his gloves, both of them, he hits hard period.

Further, when have you ever seen Hendo horribly outclassed? Come on now? I can't recall a single fighter who ever fought Hendo and was outright dominating him decisively. He's only been finished 1 time in the early rounds in the last 7yrs, and that was by Silva. The only other early finish ever in his career was in 2005 when Nog got him in an arm bar. So I guess the good news for Machida is that the only way Hendo's been finished is by submission and the only guys to ever submit him happen to be Lyoto's training partners.........

Not saying he's gonna win though.
The fights Machida's to lose.

Agreed 100%

 

[LJD]

Sure Lyoto "could" KO Hendo, but let's be honest....... none of his KO's are against an opponent nearly as tough as Hendo. Also, let's not forget that Lyoto has been KO'd and has been "rocked" several times in prior fights........ Hendo, I don't know that I have ever actually seen him sat down from a shot more than 1-2 times his entire career......

Truth be told, the only measurable statistic that exists for finishing Hendo is on the mat by submission..........

Hendo has actually been dropped from strikes several times, including his last 3 fights. Shogun, Fedor, and Feijao all dropped Hendo, then earlier in his career I'm pretty sure Wanderlei and Carlos Newton dropped him. That's one of the things that I always found interesting, Hendo gets knocked down more than you'd expect from someone with an iron chin, but he recovers so fast and he is extremely difficult to actually finish.

As far as the fight with Machida, I do lean towards Machida, but I'm really on the fence. I think people underestimate Hendo a bit. The guy is crafty. He does mainly rely on the overhand right, but he sets it up very well with the way he moves and the other strikes he uses. This is a dangerous fight for both guys. I think the fact that it's only 3 rounds does help Hendo a bit, as he gets less effective the longer the fight goes on.

 

[Jukai]

Franklin - Seen the canvas plenty of times and Lyoto was the first to KO him in the UFC, but he'd been KO'd several times prior and since, Franklin is hardly a comparison to Hendo in terms of durability........

Thiago - Who's that?

Rashad - I give this to Machida, KO'ing Rashad was an accomplishment

Bader - Eh....

Sure Lyoto "could" KO Hendo, but let's be honest....... none of his KO's are against an opponent nearly as tough as Hendo. Also, let's not forget that Lyoto has been KO'd and has been "rocked" several times in prior fights........ Hendo, I don't know that I have ever actually seen him sat down from a shot more than 1-2 times his entire career......
Truth be told, the only measurable statistic that exists for finishing Hendo is on the mat by submission..........

By dulling Lyoto's accomplishments, you are doing exactly what you got mad at other people are doing. Franklin had never LOST a fight, much less been knocked out before Lyoto did it to him... and in 37 fights, the only other people to be able to do that to Ace is Anderson Silva, Vitor Belfort, and Cung Le. No one has been able to knock out Thiago Silva except for Lyoto. No one has been able to knock out Rashad Evans except for Lyoto Machida. No one has been able to knock out Bader except Lyoto Machida. This is a reasonably impressive feat. I don't think Dan Henderson is going to be knocked out but I also don't think anyone should be SHOCKED if he was. His chin has taken a lot of damage, and Lyoto is the most precise striker in the division.

Furthermore, while Lyoto's chin certainly isn't iron, the only person to be able to knock him out is Shogun--- and that was after sixth rounds, when Lyoto totally changed up his style to blitz Shogun. He sure as hell can't take a full h-bomb, but he could survive if he was clipped. Especially if it's past the first round when Dan is slowing.

 

[KarateStylist]

This thread reminded me when Couture bought in a Karate expert to train for Machida. It didn't helped him at all. Unless somehow Hendo gained the knowledge of postioning and angles overnight, i see him losing. Or win a questionable decision like Rampage - Machida.

^^^ I would never say anything like that....

KarateStylist

 

[KarateStylist]

Extremely persistent trolling? Don't let it get you down, or, as the famous quote goes, "don't be scared, homie." This forum actually still has a fairly solid group of well intentioned posters, and only one KS, that's a good ratio!

On the original topic, in a 3 round fight, I don't think Dan is going to be able to stay on his feet when Machida wants him down, but I also would not be surprised to see a Rampage vs Machida type fight.

^^^ One alternate account talking to another.... :icon_evil a coherent fashion. VVV

I dont think he is a troll. I just think he has a difficult time organizing his ideas in a coherent fashion.

^^^ See above, and thanks.....

KarateStylist

 

[KarateStylist]

I actually think Machida fare's better if he initiates exchanges and trades....

Who have you ever seen in an "easy fight" against Hendo....

^^^ The only thing I didn't like about your writeup was use of my "...."

That's great perspective.... and your call on the striking end would certainly make an epic fight.... especially given where Machida needs to go with his gameplan....

Like you, I think Machida is going to have to work for this one.... Hendo's > Couture, BAder, et al....

I didn't copy the entire writeup.... refer to your Post #33. Nice work.... 2 thmbs ^^^

.... re SP Vs. OH RIGHT...
Ask Manny Pacquiao if he agrees with that assessment?

A SP that likes to fire in-out, typically with a straight left, tall and narrow with his chin up.......... That's tailor made for an OH right.........

^^^ aLREADY happened, we saw UFC 113.... right on!!!!!

By dulling Lyoto's accomplishments, you are doing exactly what you got mad at other people are doing. Franklin had never LOST a fight, much less been knocked out before Lyoto did it to him... and in 37 fights, the only other people to be able to do that to Ace is Anderson Silva, Vitor Belfort, and Cung Le. No one has been able to knock out Thiago Silva except for Lyoto. No one has been able to knock out Rashad Evans except for Lyoto Machida. No one has been able to knock out Bader except Lyoto Machida. This is a reasonably impressive feat. I don't think Dan Henderson is going to be knocked out but I also don't think anyone should be SHOCKED if he was. His chin has taken a lot of damage, and Lyoto is the most precise striker in the division.

Furthermore, while Lyoto's chin certainly isn't iron, the only person to be able to knock him out is Shogun--- and that was after sixth rounds, when Lyoto totally changed up his style to blitz Shogun. He sure as hell can't take a full h-bomb, but he could survive if he was clipped. Especially if it's past the first round when Dan is slowing.

^^^ Thought you weren't posting here anymore...???
^^^ This is what I want to see.... Machida seal this with the KO.... a tricky risk / reward scenario....

^^^ Awarding Machida, Title of "Most Precise Striker in the LHW Division," is off base.... Other than that,,, great counterpoint to Sully's great point....

KarateStylist

 

[ssullivan80]

By dulling Lyoto's accomplishments, you are doing exactly what you got mad at other people are doing. Franklin had never LOST a fight, much less been knocked out before Lyoto did it to him... and in 37 fights, the only other people to be able to do that to Ace is Anderson Silva, Vitor Belfort, and Cung Le. No one has been able to knock out Thiago Silva except for Lyoto. No one has been able to knock out Rashad Evans except for Lyoto Machida. No one has been able to knock out Bader except Lyoto Machida. This is a reasonably impressive feat. I don't think Dan Henderson is going to be knocked out but I also don't think anyone should be SHOCKED if he was. His chin has taken a lot of damage, and Lyoto is the most precise striker in the division.

Furthermore, while Lyoto's chin certainly isn't iron, the only person to be able to knock him out is Shogun--- and that was after sixth rounds, when Lyoto totally changed up his style to blitz Shogun. He sure as hell can't take a full h-bomb, but he could survive if he was clipped. Especially if it's past the first round when Dan is slowing.

Fair enough, I stand corrected on Franklin. I thought he had been KO'd prior to Lyoto and that's not the case. I just don't see either Bader or Thiago as being elite level opponents, and to use either as a reasonable argument for Lyoto's ability to KO Hendo is not fair IMO. Lyoto's most impressive KO IMO was undoubtedly Rashad, who I do consider to be one of the very best LHW's. But Rashad was a bit over confident in thinking he could beat Lyoto at his own game, In-out, feinting and trying to counter Lyoto on his feet was obviously a poor decision. But the difference being Rashad, although an elite level fighter still hadn't really identified his style and established his "terms" on how he dictated the fight. Hendo's the exact opposite, he knows exactly who he is as a fighter and exactly the way he want's to fight the fight on his terms. Hendo's gonna fight Lyoto the same way he fights everybody else. He won't get "conned" into fighting Lyoto's fight. This is exactly what makes him the most dangerous opponent Lyoto has faced (other than Jones, but for opposite reasons). As mentioned below, it's Lyoto's fight to lose.......... and that's exactly how most guys end up losing a fight with Hendo.

Either way, your correct..... my argument was a bit one sided. I don't mean to take anything away from Lyoto, as his accomplishments are extremely impressive. I just appreciate Hendo so much as a fighter and feel he's never been given the "hype" he deserved. His accomplishments speak for themselves and he's still the prototype for the MMA fighters of the past, he's just one tough SOB and the kind of guy that fights like he's been beating up guys in parking lots since 5th grade, for fun! No doubt, Lyoto is the "new improved" version of an elite MMA fighter....... But I still think Hendo's got one more run at the title before he hangs it up.

 

[KounterPunch]

Thiago was elite , my man.
At the time , he was.

 

[Strykerx]

I wonder what happens if and when Lyoto takes away Dan's right hand. It's foolish to go to war with Dan which I'm sure Lyoto knows better. If he can slow him down or sweep him to his back he has a good chance at winning. With all this talk on Lyoto possibly stopping Dan well it's possible iron chin guys have been koed by fast guys with power. Unlikely but history has shown it happen and Lyoto is definitely one of the fastest guys at 205.

 

[KarateStylist]

I wonder what happens if and when Lyoto takes away Dan's right hand. It's foolish to go to war with Dan which I'm sure Lyoto knows better. If he can slow him down or sweep him to his back he has a good chance at winning. With all this talk on Lyoto possibly stopping Dan well it's possible iron chin guys have been koed by fast guys with power. Unlikely but history has shown it happen and Lyoto is definitely one of the fastest guys at 205.

^^^ Exactly, this --- a KO by Machida --- this is what everyone should be looking for in this fight.... and of course as based on both history & principle, risky for Lyoto....

All around a great matchup....

KarateStylist

 

[Bay Area]

What gives you the impression that Lyoto is not hittable? He's actually been hit more and hit cleaner by guys who aren't that fast than those who were and he get's hit when those guys are coming forward and pressuring/brawling him.

Shogun, and Randy to a lesser extent were able to tag Lyoto while pressuring. Shogun tagged/ grazed Machida's chin with a right as he was circling away from the cage in their 2nd fight. He wasn't hit flush. Shogun has a 76" reach. Hendo has a 71" reach. Hendo using a pressure strategy, similar to Shogun aint gonna work. Esp since Hendo can't kick. He definately won't land an H bomb using that strategy. Further, as Jukai mentioned, Lyoto used an entirely different and risky strategy in Lyoto V Shogun 2. I think we can defer Jukai's better judgement on this because he has a Shotokan background.

That leaves timing Lyoto as he comes in. Shogun KO'd Machida as he came in. Jones dropped him in a similar fashion. Does Dan possess that type of timing and reflex necessary to drop Lyoto as he comes in? IMO no. Then you add to the fact that Lyoto is the best feinter in MMA history, and you have Dan biting on every little thing Lyoto does.

Henderson has fought someone as "fast" as Lyoto....... Vitor Belfort in 2006.

This post solidifies my argument. 2006 was 6 years ago.

Michael Bisping is also very quick on his feet.

Bisping can't be compared to Lyoto in any way. And if you want to use that fight, Bisping circled right into the H Bomb. That's not using quickness in a smart way.

Further, when have you ever seen Hendo horribly outclassed? Come on now? I can't recall a single fighter who ever fought Hendo and was outright dominating him decisively.

You keep mentioning this, but Lyoto is a completley different fighter. Dan has never faced anyone that posseses Lyoto's skill set. Lyto is a match up problem for everyone. Dan's previous oponents are irrelevant, unless he has faced a Karate point fighter, which he has not.

 

[KarateStylist]

You take top honor's as the Sherdog "Economist...." On the one hand we have _____ ///// but on the other hand ______.

KarateStylist