Lyota Machida underrated? Greatest Brazilian fighter ever?

[pick999]

Brazilian GOATs are Anderson, Big Nog, Aldo and Wanderlei.
Machida maybe top 20.

 

[ferrisjso]

What's really a point of what? Not sure what I meant.
Winning a #1 contender title give you a shot, winning a shot gives you a title - but that doesn't mean in any way that you can extrapolate that on saying that all the wins/losses have ANY meaning.
Example doesn't make a rule.
There is NO MEANING in MMA of wins/losses record.



Again, that was your only new point. it's WRONG.
Sakuraba was #1 not because he was in Pride- he was #1 for beating unanimously known #1 LHW, who fought in UFC before - Vitor.
And actually, you really don't know history of MMA. Sakuraba DID fight in the UFC



You really reaching. He wasn't as good - based on what? He was as legit in the UFC as he was in Pride, and rightful top 10.
You didn't even watch MMA back then, why do you try to rewrite what is written in the books?

And "you'd expect Big Nog to be a dominant champ, based on Pride HWs" - huh?
That makes no sense. You're really reaching. He was top 5 in Pride when switched to the UFC, he stayed there - and he actually became UFC interim champ.
BTW, NO ONE EVER was UFC HW dominant champ.




What are you trying to say/argue about here? I did not say that Anderson DESERVED a trilogy match. Hell, after his clowning he didn't deserve even a rematch if you ask me.
That doesn't mean that Weidman is better, though. And if you watch fights you know this.

CONCLUSION: You're really reaching with the points you're trying to make here, and you have no knowledge to back you up, unfortunately.
You're trying to be a revisionist in MMA and to rewrite history and devalue fighters' value. Dude, it doesn't work like that and it takes you to the wrong path of MMA community.
Anderson's value, Wanderlei's value, Big Nog's value - they are undisputed by anyone who has knowledge in MMA

But you just said what the meaning is. Dana doesn't treat losses as a positive except in very very rare circumstances. Only way to get shots and to win the title and to get defenses is to...win. I get that later on the career fighters lose and the whole thing becomes a bad way to compare but they are clearly not meaningless.

Vitor in the UFC didn't do great at 205 either before or after Pride. Lost to Chuck, won that belt off Randy getting hurt then got stomped and also he lost to Tito. I mean he came closest to beating Jones with a lucky sub but he was a MW from that point on at least in UFC. We never got to see Sakurabi in the Zuffa UFC correction but Wandy and Vitor's success isn't really encouraging.

Oh ok, you are technically right. You know most people would have missed that too lol. That was 1997 though when Tank Abott was still good. Point was he never went back. But still you got me.

Maybe for a brief time, he was interim champ after all. But still UFC division was considered weaker at the time(something drilled into my head by Pride fans by the way back in the day that makes sense), Pride stars should have stomped. Post injury Mir and Arlovoski were the best that division had to offer besides Sylvia and Randy came out of retirement cause he knew he could win the title. Becoming an IC isn't bad but in that division it ain't great either.

You are correct no one was ever a dominant HW champ regardless of how good or bad the division was. You do have a much better case with Big Nog than Wandy though which I why guess you're focusing on Big Nog.

That's a decent point especially given AS's age. I just think naturally we assume the guy who finished twice is better, what else are we supposed to think? Weidman might have defended three times but he also was in a much tougher era at MW than AS was. He beat the guy AS said was better, he beat Vitor coming off that streak with similar ease to how AS did it. I think Rockhold would have beaten AS too. Guys just got bigger and AS was basically a mini Jon Jones and Weidman, Rockhold and every single fighter AS lost to had the same thing in the common about the same size as AS, about the same reach as AS. AS's title defenses largely came across guys he had a size advantage on and seeing his record since I see no reason to think he'd continue to compete against taller guys cause all his losses come to them except Souza and Souza's a beast. Still every time AS's given a guy about his size or bigger with good standup, Weidman, Bisping, Brunsing he loses. Only exception is Forrest but Forrest doesn't know MT or have a really sophisticated striking game and AS actually had to try to dodge there he wasn't clowning(even if maybe it looked like he was). AS was also at LHW.

I feel like Pride fighters have been overvalued and I'm correcting them. Just see them getting treatment no one else would for being washed up and over the hill. Like I've said many times no way Jones gets to use the "I'm not in my prime" excuse if he loses this year. Also AS's legacy was always going to be diminished because he used to be the sport's GOAT(or the UFC one Fedor fans) in the eyes of most people(he was the one that Dana gave the title to when asked). He's not anymore MM has more defenses, GSP still hasn't lost(despite having to barely fight for that to stay true), Jones is considered the GOAT by most of those who don't care about the PED issue(which AS popped for also btw) and he's also a bigger version. Then there's Aldo who I honestly think was better too.

Big Nog I concede a little bit after the argument and watching some of those early fights. Wandy though? Clearly was better in Pride and was worse in the UFC before and after.

AS I'm just saying I think Machida was better really, that's what I was getting at and apparently AS was the one who said it.

 

[AimedWithV]

But you just said what the meaning is. Dana doesn't treat losses as a positive except in very very rare circumstances. Only way to get shots and to win the title and to get defenses is to...win. I get that later on the career fighters lose and the whole thing becomes a bad way to compare but they are clearly not meaningless.

That is meaningless when you look at the win/loss record and think you can measure it somehow.
Again, no one says that wins themselves are meaningless. Or losses. RECORD IS.

Vitor in the UFC didn't do great at 205 either before or after Pride. Lost to Chuck, won that belt off Randy getting hurt then got stomped and also he lost to Tito. I mean he came closest to beating Jones with a lucky sub but he was a MW from that point on at least in UFC. We never got to see Sakurabi in the Zuffa UFC correction but Wandy and Vitor's success isn't really encouraging.

All that is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FACT that before Sakuraba loss Vitor was the #1 LHW in the world.
Stop applying irrelevant periods of fighters' careers to other periods. That's totally incorrect thing to do.

Maybe for a brief time, he was interim champ after all. But still UFC division was considered weaker at the time(something drilled into my head by Pride fans by the way back in the day that makes sense), Pride stars should have stomped. Post injury Mir and Arlovoski were the best that division had to offer besides Sylvia and Randy came out of retirement cause he knew he could win the title. Becoming an IC isn't bad but in that division it ain't great either.

Not correct. Despite Pride having an upper hand, UFC and Pride divided top 10 (maybe 6 to 4 sometimes) back in their competition days.
No one thought UFC champ is a scrub any Pride fighter gets. UFC champ was ALWAYS top 3.

You do have a much better case with Big Nog than Wandy though which I why guess you're focusing on Big Nog.

Not sure what you mean here by talking about Wandy and comparing him to...Big Nog this time?

That's a decent point especially given AS's age. I just think naturally we assume the guy who finished twice is better, what else are we supposed to think? Weidman might have defended three times but he also was in a much tougher era at MW than AS was. He beat the guy AS said was better, he beat Vitor coming off that streak with similar ease to how AS did it. I think Rockhold would have beaten AS too. Guys just got bigger and AS was basically a mini Jon Jones and Weidman, Rockhold and every single fighter AS lost to had the same thing in the common about the same size as AS, about the same reach as AS. AS's title defenses largely came across guys he had a size advantage on and seeing his record since I see no reason to think he'd continue to compete against taller guys cause all his losses come to them except Souza and Souza's a beast. Still every time AS's given a guy about his size or bigger with good standup, Weidman, Bisping, Brunsing he loses. Only exception is Forrest but Forrest doesn't know MT or have a really sophisticated striking game and AS actually had to try to dodge there he wasn't clowning(even if maybe it looked like he was). AS was also at LHW.

This is some SERIOUS biased revisionism here. This is exactly what I warned you about.

I feel like Pride fighters have been overvalued and I'm correcting them. Just see them getting treatment no one else would for being washed up and over the hill. Like I've said many times no way Jones gets to use the "I'm not in my prime" excuse if he loses this year.

When Pride fighters started losing in UFC, no one actually checked that the UFC fighters from THE SAME eras started to lose in the same way.
But it's easier to say "Pride fighters were overvalued" because it's UFC that swallowed Pride, not vice versa.

Funny, it actually started when Rampage beat Hendo...everyone suddenly forgot where Rampage fought all of his career beforehand and claimed him as a "UFC fighter" . The difference between him as a Pride fighter is that he was bashing Pride before it folded...

Also AS's legacy was always going to be diminished because he used to be the sport's GOAT(or the UFC one Fedor fans) in the eyes of most people(he was the one that Dana gave the title to when asked). He's not anymore MM has more defenses, GSP still hasn't lost(despite having to barely fight for that to stay true), Jones is considered the GOAT by most of those who don't care about the PED issue(which AS popped for also btw) and he's also a bigger version. Then there's Aldo who I honestly think was better too.

I'm OK to switch cards anywhere between those who are considered GOATS in their respectful divisions - everyone can mix with Aldo, Anderson, GSP, Jones, Fedor, Mighty Mouse.
But no one is excluded from that list.

Wandy though? Clearly was better in Pride and was worse in the UFC before and after.

Again you mix different periods and apply it on other periods, which is wrong. And I explained exactly why he was #1.

AS I'm just saying I think Machida was better really, that's what I was getting at and apparently AS was the one who said it.

Funny thing is, Machida is one of my favorite fighters.
But he WAS NOT better than Anderson, and he was NOT better than Wanderlei in terms of his legacy - no matter how many times he beat Anderson in sparring, or how loyal Anderson was to his team partner and fellow title holder.

 

[Supereem]

At one point he was considered undefeatable.

 

[TUFNewb]

I remember his incredible run like it was yesterday.

Overnight, Karate schools started popping up all around North America and parents rushed to enrol their children.

The Machida Era was upon us.

 

[Redhawks100]

lol I miss the delusion of machida fanboys

Thank you

 

[ferrisjso]

That is meaningless when you look at the win/loss record and think you can measure it somehow.
Again, no one says that wins themselves are meaningless. Or losses. RECORD IS.



All that is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FACT that before Sakuraba loss Vitor was the #1 LHW in the world.
Stop applying irrelevant periods of fighters' careers to other periods. That's totally incorrect thing to do.



Not correct. Despite Pride having an upper hand, UFC and Pride divided top 10 (maybe 6 to 4 sometimes) back in their competition days.
No one thought UFC champ is a scrub any Pride fighter gets. UFC champ was ALWAYS top 3.



Not sure what you mean here by talking about Wandy and comparing him to...Big Nog this time?



This is some SERIOUS biased revisionism here. This is exactly what I warned you about.



When Pride fighters started losing in UFC, no one actually checked that the UFC fighters from THE SAME eras started to lose in the same way.
But it's easier to say "Pride fighters were overvalued" because it's UFC that swallowed Pride, not vice versa.

Funny, it actually started when Rampage beat Hendo...everyone suddenly forgot where Rampage fought all of his career beforehand and claimed him as a "UFC fighter" . The difference between him as a Pride fighter is that he was bashing Pride before it folded...



I'm OK to switch cards anywhere between those who are considered GOATS in their respectful divisions - everyone can mix with Aldo, Anderson, GSP, Jones, Fedor, Mighty Mouse.
But no one is excluded from that list.



Again you mix different periods and apply it on other periods, which is wrong. And I explained exactly why he was #1.



Funny thing is, Machida is one of my favorite fighters.
But he WAS NOT better than Anderson, and he was NOT better than Wanderlei in terms of his legacy - no matter how many times he beat Anderson in sparring, or how loyal Anderson was to his team partner and fellow title holder.

1-We agree okay. I think the number of wins matters though at the end of the day, wins and losses together no.

2-Vitor was number one cause he hadn't fought Chuck yet who was on his way up in the UFC. If we're going to talk about things that don't matter in this sport might as well throw in numerical rankings.

3-I was under the impression(and I mean I know had these arguments with other people a few years ago) that HW was seen as superior in the UFC and LHW was seen as going either way and probably superior when Shogun came on the scene. But at HW I got that impression that Pride was seen as superior. I mean Pride fights thought Pride was seen as superior across the board but I actually believe them with the HW division.

Also 1 out of 3 is kind of inferior. Did Strikeforce not have that? Bellator probably doesn't in more than one or two divisions but that's still clear subordination IMO.

4-Wandy's easier to defend my point, Big Nog yours.

5-I think it makes perfect sense though. I mean of course it's revisionism because we aren't going to see it for what it is when it happens. If things aren't revised they stay the same.

6-This is a very good point. That being said it assumes I'm just saying all Pride fighters were inferior. No Rampage proved he was just as good if not better in the UFC. I'm specifically talking the fighters Pride fans have tended to be biased towards(which doesn't include Rampage typically because the UFC as you said inaccurately claimed him) and how they move around them being washed up to excuse losses. Even if Rampage was seen as a Pride fighter not a UFC one, like Hendo there's nothing to excuse here. Talking about the guys who that didn't happen to. Just as good if not better for quite a few years. Overeem too though there I think it's cause he gained weight.

I'm biased clearly but I'm not trying to say all the Pride fighters were inferior just trying to point out cases where I feel they get a pass for losses that clearly came before they were washed up. The doing good in the UFC thing matters because you know Pride fighters weren't tested for steroids and the difference would tend to show. I'm not blaming specific people because I think it's against some sort of rule got punished a few years back but I'm usually implying that. Some fighters did great when they came to the UFC others didn't.

7-Still got Machida and Shogun there above AS IMO cause I think they would beat him(and I'm including Shoguns stuff in Pride obv) and would have been more dominant champs at MW. That was seen as crazy then prolly crazy now but I think they are up there. That's a decent list but some clearly do better than others when people ask(it's usually Fedor, Jones, GSP now) same way it used to be mostly (AS, Fedor, GSP,Aldo, Jones). Agree that's most of the top tier though.

8-But it's all the periods except one. I don't want to bring up why this matters for reasons I said before. And no don't care about PED use morally but if someone's suspected of using it one era and does considerably worse in the others, it says something IMO. With the other Pride guys you just got them doing worse before, Wandy it's both. Wandy also wasn't inexperienced or anything. He knocked Tito down in the third round. Tito just took him down and kept him there the rest of the fight. Did Wandy ever really get good TDD? Also it's hard to call it different era's when an era ends one fight and a new one starts the next.

9-Well going by both AS's words and my opinion there. I realize I'm outgunned but I think most would disagree with you about Wandy>Machida. Machida took a round from Jones and regardless of what happened next that caused a two year rematch frenzy. Machida finished Bader who is still a great fighter today, Machida finished Shad another legend until that injury might have been able to beat DC. Don't think Wandy would have a chance against the kind of people Machida was capable of standing with. But to end this my whole point is a contrast between how the AS/Machida situation ended different from the DC/Cain one.

 

[GSP_37]

Lyoto's pretty good. Impressive resume and HL reel.

 

[AimedWithV]

I think the number of wins matters though at the end of the day

Numbers of wins? Have you ever heard the termine "padded record"?

2-Vitor was number one cause he hadn't fought Chuck yet who was on his way up in the UFC. If we're going to talk about things that don't matter in this sport might as well throw in numerical rankings.

...if we know how to use them, eh? When Vitor fought Sakuraba, Chuck's career was in its diapers.
If you really think that Chuck with 3-4 fights could do anything to Vitor - just rewatched their fight and see how close it was when Chuck was at his BEST.

Also 1 out of 3 is kind of inferior. Did Strikeforce not have that? Bellator probably doesn't in more than one or two divisions but that's still clear subordination IMO.

Strikeforce did - in 2 divisions: LW and HW. And yes, there was not "clear subordination" in these division. Nothing was clear.
And , again, no one expected any Pride top fighter to annihilate UFC top fighter by default.

5-I think it makes perfect sense though. I mean of course it's revisionism because we aren't going to see it for what it is when it happens. If things aren't revised they stay the same.

If history isn't revised it stays history. If facts aren't revised, they stay facts.
No one who witnessed MMA periods you're talking about will claim what you claim.

6-This is a very good point. That being said it assumes I'm just saying all Pride fighters were inferior. No Rampage proved he was just as good if not better in the UFC. I'm specifically talking the fighters Pride fans have tended to be biased towards(which doesn't include Rampage typically because the UFC as you said inaccurately claimed him) and how they move around them being washed up to excuse losses. Even if Rampage was seen as a Pride fighter not a UFC one, like Hendo there's nothing to excuse here. Talking about the guys who that didn't happen to. Just as good if not better for quite a few years. Overeem too though there I think it's cause he gained weight.

I;m not sure what you're leading to here.
There were those who were biased with Pride, and those who are biased with UFC.
Pride fighters lost a lot when they came to the UFC, but UFC fighters from Pride period lost none the less, in the same time.

As of steroids, as you mentioned - you know, I do believe honestly that Anderson is a cheater and the system lets him cheat further and further.
I do not blame someone who isn't caught even though I realize steroids in Pride were legal.
I can perfectly respect the position saying "In Pride steroids were legal - therefore none of the accomplishments of their fighters should be in the history books. Same with known steroid users like Anderson". Are you in this position? I thought you aren't.

Still got Machida and Shogun there above AS IMO cause I think they would beat him(and I'm including Shoguns stuff in Pride obv) and would have been more dominant champs at MW. That was seen as crazy then prolly crazy now but I think they are up there. That's a decent list but some clearly do better than others when people ask(it's usually Fedor, Jones, GSP now) same way it used to be mostly (AS, Fedor, GSP,Aldo, Jones). Agree that's most of the top tier though.

"they would beat him" is never a correct measure of who was the best in history. It's about accomplishments.

8-But it's all the periods except one. I don't want to bring up why this matters for reasons I said before. And no don't care about PED use morally but if someone's suspected of using it one era and does considerably worse in the others, it says something IMO. With the other Pride guys you just got them doing worse before, Wandy it's both. Wandy also wasn't inexperienced or anything. He knocked Tito down in the third round. Tito just took him down and kept him there the rest of the fight. Did Wandy ever really get good TDD? Also it's hard to call it different era's when an era ends one fight and a new one starts the next.

Again, we're talking here about relevant periods. Every fighter starts worse than in his prime, and gets worse in his decline.
Wanderlei beat the highest opposition therefore became the highest in the same period than others, Tito including, did not.

Other stuff is pure speculation. Matchups and flows in the game, if there are, do not define the accomplishments.

9-Well going by both AS's words and my opinion there. I realize I'm outgunned but I think most would disagree with you about Wandy>Machida. Machida took a round from Jones and regardless of what happened next that caused a two year rematch frenzy. Machida finished Bader who is still a great fighter today, Machida finished Shad another legend until that injury might have been able to beat DC. Don't think Wandy would have a chance against the kind of people Machida was capable of standing with. But to end this my whole point is a contrast between how the AS/Machida situation ended different from the DC/Cain one.

Comparing opposition from different eras is another way of revisionism, because history tends to show evolution.
You cannot diss Genghis Khan because his horde would've been outgunned by Luxembourg army of today.

Machida is a great fighter with great skills. and he applied them all right against good opponents, too.
But he did not accomplish what Wanderlei did, in the period when he was in his prime just like Wanderlei.

 

[josh345]

Machida rarely gets brought up in the UFC greatest fighters conversation. Machida's record in the UFC is 17-8. Clearly he ain't the GOAT but what is Machida really missing except a long title reign or a second belt? His fighting style was conservative but he had his fair share of exciting KO's and people don't necessarily have a problem with that stuff because of GSP.

He always used spar with AS and I remember someone saying that Machida looked like the better fighter. Well what really seperates the two except that Machida fought in the tougher division and AS got to be champ for a long period of time. AS is 18-4 as of now and AS also had far greater natural advantages, like a Jon Jones except no one really talks about how 6 foot 6 and a 77 inch reach is incredible for MW.

Guy's 40 and is on a quiet three fight win streak. But yeah never gets brought up and his record shines compared to Shad, Shogun's and Rampage's. Machida was also in quite a few close decisions, the one over Rua and the losses to Rampage and Davis. I actually agree with all three but know all of them were really controversial at the time.

Got thinking of this because when he finished Bader at the time that win was kind of like "who cares it's Bader, Bader lost to Tito lolz" but now it's like Machida still might be a contender at 205 this guy was great fighting in an incredible division.

For every DC refusing to fight in his champ friends division that gets a lucky ending, there's a Machida who is stuck in the harder division without getting the belt.

I like that you agree with the rua decision lol. Almost all of the rounds were a toss up and he has the champ advantage. I think he won fair and square

 

[OldYellowBricks]

Aldo or Anderson


He’s certainly up there though, with the likes of Shogun, Wand, Werdum and Big Nog.

 

[Ivan Ivanov]

Naa, Michel Prazeres is the best!

 

[tuckermaclain]

Machida was one of the first of really talented Brazilian strikers who had some ground game. One of his earlier fights was in Japan wher champ Rich Franklin fought him as a tune-up fight. At that time, Timmeh, Liddel, Franklin, and Farm Boy were champs. Machida gave Franklin a lesson before he TKO'D him. He didn't look like he wanted to destroy him and was not emotional at all. He fought like it was a chess game on foot. Silva and Machida were the most gifted strikers in the UFC when they came up. Remember when Chris Leben was actually a contender with a granite chin? Silva dispatched him in like 30 seconds. He destroyed Franklin twice in some really lopsided fights. When they came in, striking was elevated to another level at the top of the food chain.

 

[mkt]

Brazilian GOATs are Anderson, Big Nog, Aldo and Wanderlei.
Machida maybe top 20.

Anderson and Aldo, not Big Nog and certainly not Wand. Get over your Pride bias. As for Lyoto, I can't put him at the top since he didn't hold a belt long enough. However, if you replaced him with Anderson at MW in 2006, it's possible he'd have had a similar reign. He beat many of the same fighters, though at different points in their careers (Rich Franklin, Hendo, Belfort, Bonnar, etc.).

It's unfortunate they were such good friend and training partners...and both had the potential to rule MW for many years.

 

[mkt]

Feel like he would have won the Shogun rematch if he wasn't pressured to be so unusually aggressive. People were brutal towards him after that first one, UFC even gave Shogun a win bonus for losing basically sending the message that "we think you're not the champ". Machida probably felt if he didn't get the finish and won on the cards again people would keep calling him a fake champ.

Yep he even said he'd be more aggressive in the rematch. He was doing well--got 2 early takedowns. But getting in the pocket and slugging it out with Shogun was a very bad mistake.

 

[Anderson Silva]

Anderson is goat

 

[AimedWithV]

Anderson and Aldo, not Big Nog and certainly not Wand. Get over your Pride bias.

Another clueless revisionist.

Read my messages in this thread, become more knowledgeable and then come back to me.

 

[mkt]

Another clueless revisionist.

Read my messages in this thread, become more knowledgeable and then come back to me.

I've read your drivel many times. It's been refuted often (by myself and others). Be more objective and you'll see.

 

[mkt]

Big machida fan back in the day, he's definitely one of the best brazilian fighters but def not the greatest. Andy is the greatest, followed by aldo

I agree. But if we make this hypothetical, Machida could very well do the same thing Silva did at MW in the same era. But of course he didn't so we can't give him a GOAT title.

 

[AimedWithV]

I've read your drivel many times. It's been refuted often (by myself and others). Be more objective and you'll see.

It hasn't been refuted even once.
I showed exactly why both of them were undisputed #1 s in history books for a long time and therefore deserve their places in Brazilian GOAT top 5 - whether you like it or not.