1. Guest, The MS Paint Shoop Thread v5 is up! Red Block» | Blue Block»

Lineal Championship History

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by acannxr, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. acannxr Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    6,978
    Likes Received:
    884
    Lineal championships are only on the line at the weight class for which they correspond with; a lineal Light Heavyweight championship can only be on the line in a Light Heavyweight fight (another division or catchweight fight is ignored).

    Heavyweight - Daniel Cormier:
    Mark Coleman (97) -> Maurice Smith (97) -> Randy Couture (97) -> Enson Inoue (98) -> Mark Kerr (00) -> Kazuyuki Fujita (00) -> Mark Coleman (00) -> Antonio Nogueira (01) -> Fedor Emelianenko (03) -> Fabricio Werdum (10) -> Alistair Overeem (11) -> Antonio Silva (13) -> Cain Velasquez (13) -> Fabricio Werdum (15) -> Stipe Miocic (16) -> Daniel Cormier (18)

    Light Heavyweight - Vacant:
    Frank Shamrock (97)

    Middleweight - Gegard Mousasi:
    Dave Menne (01) -> Murilo Bustamante (02) -> Dan Henderson (05) -> Kazuo Misaki (06) -> Paulo Filho (06) -> Norman Paraisy (11) -> Maiquel Falcão (12) -> Alexander Shlemenko (13) -> Brandon Halsey (14) -> Rafael Carvalho (15) -> Gegard Mousasi (18)

    Welterweight - Vacant:
    Pat Miletich (98) -> Jutaro Nakao (99) -> Tetsuji Kato (99) -> Hayato Sakurai (00) -> Anderson Silva (01) -> Daiju Takase (03) -> Rodrigo Gracie (03)

    Lightweight - Khabib Nurmagomedov:
    Jens Pulver (01) -> Duane Ludwig (03) -> Tyson Griffin (06) -> Frankie Edgar (07) -> Gray Maynard (08) -> Frankie Edgar (11) -> Benson Henderson (12) -> Anthony Pettis (13) -> Rafael dos Anjos (15) -> Eddie Alvarez (16) -> Conor McGregor (16) -> Khabib Nurmagomedov (18)

    Featherweight - Vacant:
    Cole Escovedo (02) -> Bao Quach (03) -> Hideki Kadowaki (03) -> Naoya Uematsu (04) -> Gilbert Melendez (05)

    Bantamweight - T.J. Dillashaw:
    Wineland (06) -> Chase Beebe (07) -> Miguel Torres (08) -> Brian Bowles (09) -> Dominick Cruz (10) -> Cody Garbrandt (16) -> T.J. Dillashaw (17)

    Flyweight - Henry Cejudo:
    Demetrious Johnson (12) -> Henry Cejudo (18)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  2. Rondas Pillow Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    5,289
    Likes Received:
    147
    Conor is not the lineal lightweight champ.
     
  3. LouisBolanos Popcorn tastes good

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Messages:
    28,734
    Likes Received:
    131
    Location:
    Lake Jackson
    There're tons of problems with this. First of all Silva's win over Hayato Sakurai wasn't at welterweight, it was Shooto middleweight which by UFC standards is catchweight of 167lbs. Secondly when people leave a division for whatever reason (retirement, death etc.) you have to start again, otherwise eventually all divisions will just have vacant champions because something will happen sooner or later.
     
  4. acannxr Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    6,978
    Likes Received:
    884
    Then who is and explain why, otherwise you're not contributing to the discussion.

    The problem with early MMA is the weight classes weren't unified, so how exactly do you decide which division is which? There's also the fact that the UFC had unification bouts with the Pride titles despite the weight classes not being precisely the same, so are we going to ignore that precedent? I'd say the divisions weren't unified until post-Pride, which justifies my rationale for the Sakurai/Silva fight counting towards the lineal title.

    And if a lineal championship is vacated, how do you decide when a new lineal championship is inaugurated?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  5. acannxr Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    6,978
    Likes Received:
    884
    It wasn't a good look:
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Sweater of AV Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    15,594
    Likes Received:
    10,562
    Fedor. 18 lineal HW title defenses with 16 finishes.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. LouisBolanos Popcorn tastes good

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Messages:
    28,734
    Likes Received:
    131
    Location:
    Lake Jackson
    That's why I said there're a lot of issues with this system, if the weight classes weren't unified then you can't call it lineal WW championship and add the stipulation that fights must take place in the correct division for them to count. The only thing you can do is forgo that restriction and accept the linear champion as the one who beats the previous title holder at whatever weight.

    The new lineal champion is inaugurated the same way the first lineal champion is inaugurated - whoever the UFC makes the new champion of that division becomes the new lineal champion.
     
  8. UPAZWITTS Tool Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    1,548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Didn't Tito kill Shamrock multiple times at LHW?
     
  9. acannxr Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    6,978
    Likes Received:
    884
    Post-Pride, the weight categories are unified. Prior to that, divisions within a couple of pounds of one another would be equivalents.

    And why is the UFC the arbiter for the lineal title? The whole point of lineal titles is that it doesn't discriminate against any organization.

    P.S. - Going to sleep, will reply tomorrow.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. UPAZWITTS Tool Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    1,548
    Likes Received:
    0
    I read Ken, even though you clearly wrote Frank.
     
  11. Striderx5 麻ベルト

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    4,418
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    私の道場で
    [​IMG]
    Only belt that matters
     
  12. AtaTheCrow Immortal

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    71
    what is this shit?? no really, what is this telling us, that the lineal Champion is extraneous and irrelevant?
    Something is not even worth to know, an unnecessary, needless, superfluous Information.

    What is the reason of this post if not implying that the lineal Champion is nonessential.
     
  13. WhiteBeltForLife White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    http://www.fightmatrix.com/lineal-championship-histories/

    This site does a great job of stepping through everything you are talking about here. Like the other posters have already pointed out you need to decide on the rules for this ahead of time, and once you do you have to stick to them whatever their logical conclusion. It looks like a straightforward, empirical way to know who the "real" champion is but in actuality there is a lot of opinion involved in just picking starting and ending points. Like the other posters have said:
    • When a fighter retires undefeated you have to decide how you want to handle that. Do you just throw your hands up in the air and say "Well I guess this is done forever!" and never have a "real" champ in that division again?
    • Nowadays it is pretty clear cut that the UFC champ is the best in the world, but that has not always been the case and technically there is nothing empirical or logical that forces that to have to be the case in recent times and even going forward. Example: the current Bellator WW champ is 1-0 against the current UFC WW champ, and Rory is younger so if somehow they ever fought again Rory would probably and rightfully be the favorite.
    • The weight classes are even more problematic than simply that Pride had a different range for its middleweight/LHW than UFC did. For one, you need to cover every pound in a range for historical purposes just by definition since technically anyone can weigh any weight in the range. Example of that mattering: Shooto is and was legit MMA, pre-dates UFC and Pride, had the lighter weight classes LONG before the UFC did, and they don't use pounds. They use kilograms, so their stuff never perfectly jives with UFC's. While on the topic, the UFC created-destroyed-recreated its 155 pound division. What do you do with the champ with that (historically speaking)?

    Looking at your lists, you just made a UFC lineal list which also incorporates Pride where appropriate, but that isn't correct if you are actually trying to start "at the beginning" and work your way forward. You ignore all MMA prior to 1997 completely, so you ignore everything that created and popularized the sport in the beginning. Shooto had WW and LW champs before UFC 1 even happened, so there are no grounds to state that Miletich (for example) can just be "declared" the beginning of the lineal WW championship. And the guy who beat him (Nakao) was basically from Shooto, yet never won Shooto's 170 pound belt.

    And now that I'm looking at that class more closely, Anderson Silva losing to Daiju Takase was not at 170 I believe. Silva won the Shooto belt at 170 but the Takase fight in Pride was at 83 kilos which is about 183 pounds, which would not be in the 170 lineal chain.
     
  14. AtaTheCrow Immortal

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    71
    Is the lineal champion irrelevant? ----> YES!

    Is the real Champion the best guy in the devision? -----> YES

    Real Champions,

    HW - DC
    LHW - DC
    MW - Whittaker
    WW - Woodley
    LW - Ferguson
    FW - Holloway
    BW - Dillashaw
    FLW - Cejudo

    /Thread
     
  15. NekMinnit The Reapers Era

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2017
    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ferguson kicked metal poles to get out of the fight with Khabib
     
  16. AtaTheCrow Immortal

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    71
    Implying that the crazy motherfucker Ferguson is afraid of another man, is funny.

    However the LW Division is the most difficult to rate, We have 3 guys that claim Gold.
    Soon we will be a step closer to know who really the best is.

    I believe that Khabib will defeat conor and Ferguson will then defeat Khabib.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  17. irish_thug Meme Mod Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    39,570
    Likes Received:
    6,204
    Location:
    In a drunken stupor
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Toco Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Messages:
    32,619
    Likes Received:
    1
    you smoked some good shit before doing this lineage, buddy
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.