Lineage vs Competition History

[JustTheTip]

Say you moved to a city and there were two BJJ schools in town. One had an instructor that was from direct Renzo Gracie Lineage but little to no competition history.The school was a Renzo Gracie affiliate. The other instructor had an extensive competition history(Masters) and seemed like a badass but you never heard of the guy he got his BB from and the school isn't affiliated with a huge Association.
Which one would you first be more attracted to?


Please don't answer that you will check both out first. Which would you FIRST be most interested in? This is a totally random situation that a few friends and I debated.

 

[rmongler]

in a low information environment, lineage is basically the only reliable way to know what you are getting into. in a context where everyone is always fighting everyone, and there are ways to *know* about it, you might have enough data to affordtaking a chance with someone of unknown pedigree but known successes.

 

[Allan san]

I prefer hard, competitive rolling so I would immediately be drawn to the school that has a competition history.

 

[lechien]

I prefer to meet each person and see if I can train with. Lineage and medals means nothing if the instructor turns out to be a douchebag.

 

[Young Turkey]

Competition

 

[These Two Hands]

Honestly I would want to check both clubs out to see which one I felt best about. Training quality for sure, but also whether or not I get along or gel with the other students and the coaches there. In fact that's actually what I did when I started out, and I did the same again when I had to find a new boxing club too.

 

[Calibur]

I always choose competition but I'm not going to lie, sometimes I'm envious of those guys that are tied to big names. Being affiliated with well known people feels good.

I just temind myself I'm getting the right training for me and I usually feel better.

 

[liuk3]

Lineage. Could care less about competition.

 

[Calibur]

Lineage. Could care less about competition.

So you would skip the team that you KNOW has quality in lieu of the team that sounds like it has quality?

No big surprise. People still buy Armani. Even the people who know it sucks.

 

[nefti]

So you would skip the team that you KNOW has quality in lieu of the team that sounds like it has quality?

No big surprise. People still buy Armani. Even the people who know it sucks.

A good competition means the competition team is good, not a true reflection on the quality of your average student.

 

[Calibur]

A good competition means the competition team is good, not a true reflection on the quality of your average student.

Still miles more trust worthy than relying only on a famous name.

What's the faster path to improvement? Sparring with good people or hearing stories about the guy in another state your coach pays monthly dues to?

 

[nefti]

Still miles more trust worthy than relying only on a famous name.

What's the faster path to improvement? Sparring with good people or hearing stories about the guy in another state your coach pays monthly dues to?

actually neither is a good measure.

 

[Jonas g33k]

I always choose competition but I'm not going to lie, sometimes I'm envious of those guys that are tied to big names. Being affiliated with well known people feels good.

I just temind myself I'm getting the right training for me and I usually feel better.

Being affiliated means nice seminars with elite peoples. But I'd rather have the competition team too since IMHO consistency of the quality is more important than having a few guests once in a while.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

In competitive sports (both combat sports like boxing, wrestling, judo, or other sports like soccer, football, hockey) the first choice is a coach who's produced champions.

It doesn't matter that much if the coach ever competed successfully themselves (Cus D'Amato in boxing, Scotty Bowman in hockey etc), the question is can they make you into a great competitor.

The second choice is someone who was a champ themselves. They may or may not be able to pass that on (some champs are great coaches, others are miserable coaches).

The third choice is lineage - and in fact in most sports no one knows or cares about lineages. What is Freddy Roach's lineage? What is Karelin's lineage? What was Kimura's lineage? What is Michael Jordan's lineage?

However, in a new sport lineage can be useful - it gives some idea if the coach knows what they're talking about. I think BJJ is making the transition from that new stage to the competition based stage.

 

[GKY]

Whoever produces better competitors. I'd go there first. But with that in mind my knees can't handle DLR and berimbolo variations anymore. Also not a big fan of extreme gi reliance or anti-leg lock gyms. So if I found that's what the gym does I'd probably leave.

TL;DR - Come for the competition results, stay for the training and environment.

 

[Tirofijo2001]

I prefer to meet each person and see if I can train with. Lineage and medals means nothing if the instructor turns out to be a douchebag.

This. There's too much emphasis on lineage here. (Probably because it's easy/fun to debate lineage on a forum.

(As a non-competing hobbyist, there's also probably too much emphasis on competition success for my tastes, but I don't begrudge others for taking it seriously. If you compete, then the instructor's competition resume is certainly important.)

 

[Tirofijo2001]

In competitive sports (both combat sports like boxing, wrestling, judo, or other sports like soccer, football, hockey) the first choice is a coach who's produced champions.

It doesn't matter that much if the coach ever competed successfully themselves (Cus D'Amato in boxing, Scotty Bowman in hockey etc), the question is can they make you into a great competitor.

The second choice is someone who was a champ themselves. They may or may not be able to pass that on (some champs are great coaches, others are miserable coaches).

The third choice is lineage - and in fact in most sports no one knows or cares about lineages. What is Freddy Roach's lineage? What is Karelin's lineage? What was Kimura's lineage? What is Michael Jordan's lineage?

However, in a new sport lineage can be useful - it gives some idea if the coach knows what they're talking about. I think BJJ is making the transition from that new stage to the competition based stage.

Very well said.

 

[lts5025]

Say you moved to a city and there were two BJJ schools in town. One had an instructor that was from direct Renzo Gracie Lineage but little to no competition history.The school was a Renzo Gracie affiliate. The other instructor had an extensive competition history(Masters) and seemed like a badass but you never heard of the guy he got his BB from and the school isn't affiliated with a huge Association.
Which one would you first be more attracted to?


Please don't answer that you will check both out first. Which would you FIRST be most interested in? This is a totally random situation that a few friends and I debated.

In this particular situation, I would be first attracted to the Renzo school because I happen to like Renzo and have had great luck with the Renzo affiliates I've dropped in to. (Shawn Williams and Renzo Gracie PDX)

You've also said the other instructor has a great competition record but said nothing about the competition success of his students. A great competitor doesn't always make a great teacher. I'd be more concerned about the students' results than the instructor's.

And you can also get great instruction without a big name affiliation or a lengthy competition resume.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Having competition success at Adult is one thing. Having "extensive history at masters" is a way different ball game.

The average joe will look at a guy who is medalling all the time at masters 4 and be impressed, while most dudes on the mat will know thats a total crapshoot and is in no way an indicator of coaching ability.

 

[Calibur]

Being affiliated means nice seminars with elite peoples. But I'd rather have the competition team too since IMHO consistency of the quality is more important than having a few guests once in a while.

Real talk, I've never attended a seminar that was worth the money. Just random moves shown. Sure, it's cool stuff that I usually don't know but it's never stuff I can implement at the end all I have is a cool story about how I met such and such belt. I get nothing out of the seminars that I wouldn't get out of a day on YouTube. Wrestling seminars I've attended have been MUCH better. Maybe because wrestling coaches don't seem to have the sense of entitlement that a lot of bjj pros have. Maybe because my wrestling knowledge is more limited, so the seminars come across as more profound. Whatever, my point stands.

Again, rolling with good people every day is the most reliable way to success. Anyone who says otherwise is just peddling bullshit, in my opinion. I'd ask to be proven wrong but....you know....bullshit pedlers.