Let's talk about Usman and GSP's competition

This is really bias....like saying Dos Anjos is just a good win but Diaz is a great win is ridiculous. First off, Diaz lost very cleanly to Condit, it was only Diaz who thought he won just like Nate always thinks he wins.

why is GSP beating Hughes a GOAT win when afterward Hughes wasn't very good, but Usman beating Woodley is him just beating a guy who was washed up cause he lost his next fights? That's not consistent at all. The sport grown past Matt Hughes and he did not retire long after.

It's also not mentioning that BJ Penn should have won the first fight against GSP, and he is significantly smaller than GSP which played a major role in their second fight. Should Usman really be punished because Khabib didn't move up to fight a bigger opponent like Penn recklessly would?

Like, saying Masivdal is a LW but saying Sherk is an amazing win is ridiculous - Sherk only fought at WW because the UFC did not have a LW division. He had a stellar record at that time, but people in MMA were ignorant to can crushing. It was not a common practice yet.


Just because fighters were on win streaks before they were beaten doesn't mean they're amazing wins. Someone like Josh Koscheck never actually beat a really great opponent - his best win was probably Diego Sanchez who was not really a welterweight. Most of Koscheck's hype just came from being NCAA div champ, who would sometimes knock guys out who were not real WW's or past it. (OP did acknowledge that Josh is inconsistent, but if he had been an Usman opponent he would have used harsher language)


GSP should be ahead of Usman cause he cleaned out his division several times over - but GSP's opponents are really romanticized, and I remember at the time of GSP vs Silva debates, they were very romanticized also while people would normally say middleweights suck cause it's a new divison (when in hindsight a lot of those guys were pretty competitive). GSP is one of the goat's because he beat peoples asses in WW, but the hype that WW was the best division in MMA at that time was overblown.

In hindsight, a lot of GSP's opponents were not as dominant as people advertised. A lot of them get extra boost because they're wrestlers, and people always give wrestlers more credit than what they actually accomplished in MMA.


I mean did someone really say Dan Hardy would beat Jorge Masivdal? Masivdal is not the best win ever, but get real. He would knock Hardy out, there is a reason why Masivdal's latest KO loss is such a major shock. Trying to prop up GSP's worst quality win in Hardy over someone like Masivdal is really dumb. We may as well say Masivdal would destroy Nick Diaz because he beat his brother if we're being illogical.
 
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Hazuki Ryo said:
Usman is 20-1, undefeated since 2013, with 15 consecutive wins, and 5 title defenses in the UFC

GSP is 26-2, avenged his two losses, has 13 consecutive wins, and 9 title defenses in the UFC

Since some are arguing Usman is the WW best of all time, let's talk about their respective competitions...

Usman beat Edwards, Maia, Masvidal, Dos Anjos, Woodley, Colby, Burns. Great resume on paper. But if we look at the context, it's not that astonishing.

- Edwards is a great win, but he was young and rising. Not as mature as now.
- Maia was at the tail end of his career, 41 yo, and had just lost to Woodley and Covington. Still a good win.
- Masvidal is a LW who got a few good wins in a late career resurgence and got two shots at the title. Nothing memorable.
- Dos Anjos is another LW tried to go for the title shot but lost to the tops dogs of the division. Still a good win, but not impressive as when Khabib or Ferguson beat him
- Woodley was past his prime and lost his next three fights.

- Colby and Burns are the only two impressive wins of that list. Two hungry wolves and potential champs

GSP beat Diaz, Condit, Shields, Koscheck, Hardy, BJ Penn, Alves, Fitch, Hughes, Serra, Sherk, Trigg. Let's leave Hendricks out of the conversation because i personnaly think GSP lost that one.

- Diaz had just lost a controversial fight against Condit and was on a great run before GSP. It was a great win at that time
- Condit was on a 5 fights win streak, and was considered one of the top contenders. Great win
- Shields was on a 15 fights win streak, had beaten killers and has one of the best resumes out there. Top win
- Koscheck was on a 5 fights win streak and had just beaten Diego Sanchez. A good win but an inconsistent fighter
- Hardy was an OK win. He went on the lose a few fights after that and retired not long after
- Alves was on a 7 fights win streak. He was feared at that time but didn't live up to excpectations. Still a good win.
- BJ Penn is one of the GOATS. A LW, it's true, but a LW that demolished Hughes. Amazing win.
- Hughes was a huge win at that time and was considered the GOAT WW. GOAT win.
- Sherk was a monster. 36-4, and he had only lost to Hughes before that. Amazing win.

Should i continue ?

Just with the BJ, Hughes, Sherk and Shields wins alone, GSP clearly has the strongest resume and i cant' begin to understand how come we would have Usman has the WW GOAT.

Usman needs to have wins against some sharks like Luque, Khamzat or Edwards. Then we can talk about the GOAT WW status.
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I think GSP has a better resume for sure, but comparing era's is hard. I think Usman has past Khabib in this era and probably only has Jones in front of him.

I think saying Woodley wasn't in prime is a joke. He was champion and hadn't been there that long. At the time people were talking nobody could beat him. According to odds makers woodley was the only fight he wasn't fav to win. Woodley closed at 1.50 which is a reasonably strong fav for a title fight. Every other fight in his career in the UFC he was favorite.
 
Doctor Grudge said:
This is really bias....like saying Dos Anjos is just a good win but Diaz is a great win is ridiculous. First off, Diaz lost very cleanly to Condit, it was only Diaz who thought he won just like Nate always thinks he wins.

why is GSP beating Hughes a GOAT win when afterward Hughes wasn't very good, but Usman beating Woodley is him just beating a guy who was washed up cause he lost his next fights? That's not consistent at all. The sport grown past Matt Hughes and he did not retire long after.

It's also not mentioning that BJ Penn should have won the first fight against GSP, and he is significantly smaller than GSP which played a major role in their second fight. Should Usman really be punished because Khabib didn't move up to fight a bigger opponent like Penn recklessly would?

Like, saying Masivdal is a LW but saying Sherk is an amazing win is ridiculous - Sherk only fought at WW because the UFC did not have a LW division. He had a stellar record at that time, but people in MMA were ignorant to can crushing. It was not a common practice yet.


Just because fighters were on win streaks before they were beaten doesn't mean they're amazing wins. Someone like Josh Koscheck never actually beat a really great opponent - his best win was probably Diego Sanchez who was not really a welterweight. Most of Koscheck's hype just came from being NCAA div champ, who would sometimes knock guys out who were not real WW's or past it. (OP did acknowledge that Josh is inconsistent, but if he had been an Usman opponent he would have used harsher language)


GSP should be ahead of Usman cause he cleaned out his division several times over - but GSP's opponents are really romanticized, and I remember at the time of GSP vs Silva debates, they were very romanticized also while people would normally say middleweights suck cause it's a new divison (when in hindsight a lot of those guys were pretty competitive). GSP is one of the goat's because he beat peoples asses in WW, but the hype that WW was the best division in MMA at that time was overblown.

In hindsight, a lot of GSP's opponents were not as dominant as people advertised. A lot of them get extra boost because they're wrestlers, and people always give wrestlers more credit than what they actually accomplished in MMA.


I mean did someone really say Dan Hardy would beat Jorge Masivdal? Masivdal is not the best win ever, but get real. He would knock Hardy out, there is a reason why Masivdal's latest KO loss is such a major shock. Trying to prop up GSP's worst quality win in Hardy over someone like Masivdal is really dumb. We may as well say Masivdal would destroy Nick Diaz because he beat his brother if we're being illogical.
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I respect your opinion and you have valid points, but GSP beat fighters that were mostly peaking and Usman beat fighters that were at the tail end of their career, except for Colby and Burns. I'm waiting for more.

GSP fought better competition.
You just can't deny that.
 
DestinedAussie said:
I think GSP has a better resume for sure, but comparing era's is hard. I think Usman has past Khabib in this era and probably only has Jones in front of him.

I think saying Woodley wasn't in prime is a joke. He was champion and hadn't been there that long. At the time people were talking nobody could beat him. According to odds makers woodley was the only fight he wasn't fav to win. Woodley closed at 1.50 which is a reasonably strong fav for a title fight. Every other fight in his career in the UFC he was favorite.
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Come on ! He was getting close to his 40s ffs...
 
Hazuki Ryo said:
I respect your opinion and you have valid points, but GSP beat fighters that were mostly peaking and Usman beat fighters that were at the tail end of their career, except for Colby and Burns. I'm waiting for more.

GSP fought better competition.
You just can't deny that.
Click to expand...
I'm not denying, I put in bold that I have GSP over Usman. I just think you're not being fair. Like, why is Jorge Masivdal not in his prime anymore? If anything he fought Masivdal when he was most relevant. No one thought Woodley was past his prime when Usman beat him, it's just something people started saying when he went on a losing streak. There's a big difference in sports between 36 and 40 years old, Woodley was not really past his prime.

RDA was not past his prime when Usman fought him, he was 33 years old and was 1-1 against Covington and Lawler prior to fighting Usman. I think you're not using the same standards for prime, how can RDA be past his prime but not Hughes, Alves, Serra or Penn? Josh Koscheck was 2-8, with one win being over a really old Matt Hughes after he lost to GSP the second time. Look at Carlos Condit's career since fighting GSP - it's not fair to compare guys like that.

I'll say this - Usman does not have the longevity. But Burns and Colby are as good if not better than anyone ever fought GSP. I'm not going to say that someone like Thiago Alves was not a legit contender at the time, he very much was, but if we are tearing guys up using hindsight like Woodley, then you could pretend that Alves was a scrub. It's not a fair standard. Woodley is a much better fighter than most of the guys GSP fought but you're writing him off like he's a jabroni (and his next two losses were against Burns and Covington).

Woodley fought the same way he usually does against Usman. He just wasn't as good as him. Maybe he wasn't at the absolute peak, but he was not washed up, there is really no evidence of that. Again, if we are saying Woodley was past his prime because he lost his fights after fighting Usman - then you can say the same for Condit, Koscheck, Diaz (in fact you said this was an amazing win, but Diaz has never won since losing to GSP), Serra, Hughes, Alves, Hardy, Penn at WW - actually, most of GSP's opponents were bad after they fought him. So you need to change what you said about Woodley.

Woodley, Burns, and Covington are super legit wins. RDA was also really good at WW. Those guys could fight anyone GSP ever fought and beat them or give them the fight of their careers. I don't feel that is that controversial. All those guys would beat someone like Josh Koscheck rather easily.

GSP should be placed over Usman because he was tested more due to more fights, or because perhaps conceptually he might beat Usman head to head (not saying he would, but it would be a good reason). The idea that Usman fought guys who are not on the same level as GSP's competition is not correct. Maybe it's not a large number, but Usman's top 5 victories are just as competitive as GSPs. GSP has Usman beat on depth.
 
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Frank Edgar said:
First Khabib and now Usman. GSP fanboys just will not shut the fuck up about how much better his resume is than the current guys

4/5 times these threads are started by people "defending" GSP, which makes me wonder what the point is. It's not like there's a giant subsection of the fanbase articulating why Usman is so much better. It just reeks of insecurity
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Dont be obtuse. The president of the company openly stated Usman is the best of all time because he hates GSP. If Dana wants to bury GSP people will pushback against it.
 
Doctor Grudge said:
I'm not denying, I put in bold that I have GSP over Usman. I just think you're not being fair. Like, why is Jorge Masivdal not in his prime anymore? If anything he fought Masivdal when he was most relevant. No one thought Woodley was past his prime when Usman beat him, it's just something people started saying when he went on a losing streak. There's a big difference in sports between 36 and 40 years old, Woodley was not really past his prime.

RDA was not past his prime when Usman fought him, he was 33 years old and was 1-1 against Covington and Lawler prior to fighting Usman. I think you're not using the same standards for prime, how can RDA be past his prime but not Hughes, Alves, Serra or Penn? Josh Koscheck was 2-8, with one win being over a really old Matt Hughes after he lost to GSP the second time. Look at Carlos Condit's career since fighting GSP - it's not fair to compare guys like that.

I'll say this - Usman does not have the longevity. But Burns and Colby are as good if not better than anyone ever fought GSP. I'm not going to say that someone like Thiago Alves was not a legit contender at the time, he very much was, but if we are tearing guys up using hindsight like Woodley, then you could pretend that Alves was a scrub. It's not a fair standard. Woodley is a much better fighter than most of the guys GSP fought but you're writing him off like he's a jabroni (and his next two losses were against Burns and Covington).

Woodley fought the same way he usually does against Usman. He just wasn't as good as him. Maybe he wasn't at the absolute peak, but he was not washed up, there is really no evidence of that. Again, if we are saying Woodley was past his prime because he lost his fights after fighting Usman - then you can say the same for Condit, Koscheck, Diaz (in fact you said this was an amazing win, but Diaz has never won since losing to GSP), Serra, Hughes, Alves, Hardy, Penn at WW - actually, most of GSP's opponents were bad after they fought him. So you need to change what you said about Woodley.

Woodley, Burns, and Covington are super legit wins. RDA was also really good at WW. Those guys could fight anyone GSP ever fought and beat them or give them the fight of their careers. I don't feel that is that controversial. All those guys would beat someone like Josh Koscheck rather easily.

GSP should be placed over Usman because he was tested more due to more fights, or because perhaps conceptually he might beat Usman head to head (not saying he would, but it would be a good reason). The idea that Usman fought guys who are not on the same level as GSP's competition is not correct. Maybe it's not a large number, but Usman's top 5 victories are just as competitive as GSPs. GSP has Usman beat on depth.
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And you didnt even mentioned Maia.

I guess the narrative is that "Fitch was an unstoppable force" while Maia was "a one dimensional washed up mediocre" or someting along those lines.

Fitch's only ranked coming into his tittle fight was undersized #5 Sanchez by SD, for the record. Sanchez who was coming off a loss to Koscheck, who was still unranked at the time
 
CannotWin said:
Dont be obtuse. The president of the company openly stated Usman is the best of all time because he hates GSP. If Dana wants to bury GSP people will pushback against it.
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Greedy Dana hates the fighter that made him the most money besides Conor and that was a perfect company man?
Sure, dude.
 
Of course GSP is still ahead for now. But Usmans career is ongoing, and moving at a rate where the gap is closing pretty quickly. Just in the last 9 months hes beaten Colby again, absolutely demolished Burns and handed Jorge his first KO loss since 2008. Imagine in 2022 he adds Khamzat, Luque and a second Edwards win to that list.
 
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Hazuki Ryo said:
Usman needs to have wins against some sharks like Luque, Khamzat or Edwards. Then we can talk about the GOAT WW status.
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khamzat has only beaten one good guy so if he beat khamzat tmrw, i don't think it would mean much.
 
Hazuki Ryo said:
Come on ! He was getting close to his 40s ffs...
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Seriously he won the title, defended it multiple times, pretty much as many as Khabib. It is literally the only fight Usman has had in UFC he wasn't favourite. Yes Woodley was getting on in age but at that point he hadn't shown it at all.

It is harsh to take credit off Usman for what came afterwards.
 
Hazuki Ryo said:
I respect your opinion and you have valid points, but GSP beat fighters that were mostly peaking and Usman beat fighters that were at the tail end of their career, except for Colby and Burns. I'm waiting for more.

GSP fought better competition.
You just can't deny that.
Click to expand...

Woodley was multiple time defending UFC champion when he fought him. Clearly that was T-woods peak (if you aren't including his rap career or his acting career).
 
The reason GSP is the goat to me is because you already knew what he was gonna do anyway he just spams jab, superman punch, takedown and not only could nobody stop him he 50-45ed dam near everyone
 
GSP is clearly the WW GOAT right now. This is just recency bias. You used to see it with Woodley as well, which is hilarious in retrospect. To be fair, I do think Usman has the potential to compete with GSP for WW GOAT though. It’s just too early to say at this point.
 
Shaddows said:
I hate these comparisons from dishonest people who hype one side and dismiss another.
Be fucking neutral or don't waste people's time writing a long ass fucking biased text.
If you claim Masvidal was meh because he was "a light weight", then don't claim that BJ Penn was a huge fucking accomplishment. I mean you could (at least) have noted he lost to Machida before that fight. Or to Hughes right after. But no. You think we are stupid.

Note: I don't think Usman is close to GSP (yet), but these biased arguments have to stop.
- We know GSP fanboys will GSP fanboys.
- We know Usman fanboys will Usman fanboys.
So stay in your fucking lane. Stop trying to play the "I got an unbiased opinion" crap. No one believes in you, and it just muddles the water.
Click to expand...
Lol. You should read this a dozen times before you comment on Anderson Silva or GSP. You’re not exactly a beacon of impartiality in this department.
 
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