Let's talk about Kesa Gatame/Scarf Hold

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Kirra, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Kirra

    Kirra Orange Belt

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    First of all, I believe we need to clear something up.

    This is Hon Kesa Gatame/Kesa Gatame/Scarf Hold:

    [​IMG]

    This is Kuzure Kesa Gatame/Modified Scarf Hold:

    [​IMG]

    I've been searching for Kesa Gatame vids lately and half of them have been about Kuzure Kesa Gatame. How would you like it if half of all Kimura vids were about the Americana? We are not animals, we live in a society, let's call things by their assigned names shall we?

    With that out of the way, let's talk about Kesa. I've been playing around with it for the past few months and I've kinda fallen in love with it. When I started training I was told that Kuzure Kesa was much better since regular Kesa would lead to you having your back taken. I find this not to be true at all. Lately I've been submitting everybody around my level (shitty blue belt) from Kesa (with pressure alone like 80% of the time and I'm a regular sized guy) and haven't had my back taken as far as I can remember. In fact, I think that regular Kesa is a much better position than Kuzure Kesa cos I feel that there's less effective escapes from there. You can't push their head away like you can with Kuzure Kesa, so the only two good options you have is trying to turn in or getting your hips close to theirs and try to bump their forward to hopefully make space for a reversal or the first escape.

    My biggest problem with Kesa so far has been getting to it. My Judo throws are horrible, so I'm left with going to Kesa from Side Control or Mount, but that feels risky sometimes cos you need to be quick and precise. I do it pretty much like the guy in this video, but I still feel like I'm half a second from having my back taken in this transition.



    Getting there from Mount is easier, but it feels like a waste to give up Mount for Kesa. My finishing rate is probably higher from Kesa at this point and I'm pretty sure that I have a higher degree of control from Kesa so I don't know why I feel this way. The way I've been getting to Kesa from Mount is what Rustam Chsiev does at 7:25 in this vid, although I'm not sure what he did to tap the guy:



    So if anyone has some cool ways of getting to Kesa, please share them here. If you have any good submissions from there, please share them too. I sometimes hit the Armbar or Americana with the legs, but most of the time people tap to this:



    So, guys, how do you like to enter into Kesa Gatame, what are your go-to moves from there? Do you often get your back taken from there? Do you take other peoples backs from there? Do you think you can reliably set up an Arm Triangle from Kesa? Discuss.
     
  2. Thrawn33

    Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

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    Judo guy turned BJJ noob here:

    I tend to wind up in traditional kesa immediately following a throw. It works great for stalling on whites and lower level blues. I do feel like I have more control when I can grab my own leg with the head arm. This keeps their inside shoulder off the mat and doesn't let them turn into me for a bake take.

    When it comes to holding down skilled players I prefer kuzure. I also find myself getting it off a transition from side control.

    No-gi I prefer kuzure (and find myself there more often after a throw since I have the undertook standing) but grabbing my own leg on a traditional scarf hold works too.

    I've done judo long enough to know I can stall there. Problem with me is that doing BJJ I cannot win by pin, so I will be honest and say in my case I lose it when transitioning for subs.

    We did a simulated scored tournament roll today for a guy competing soon and I did find that it does still work great for stalling and gassing your opponent out when you have a 2pt lead.
     
  3. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    I love hon Kesa, I've been working as much as i can on my pressure, as lons as you can keep the arm trapped your back is safe if somehow you lost control of the arm and you feel like the elbow is touching the mat, abort and worry about not getting your back taken...
     
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  4. Thrawn33

    Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

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    This too. Learning to recognize when you're losing it is key.
     
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  5. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    I use the hon kesa occasionally. I usually go for the americana with the legs submission. It is relatively high percentage for me if I get there.

    I don't use hon kesa much on higher level guys. They rarely give up the arm that I need to transition well. The head is not so important in the transition, but the arm is key to establishing the position.

    It does tend towards stalling. But I like the position anyway. It is in my opinion the strongest pin available.
     
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  6. Thrawn33

    Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

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    I do love the rare crushing asphyxiation tap from kuzure.
     
  7. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    Once you understand how to do it right, It doesn't require that much strength. I'm 5'6 and weigh 170, Josh BarnettI am not. To keep them pinned or get the the tap. And it should be more of a choke than a crank.

    Keys the position:
    1. Keep his bottom arm (obviously)
    2. Keep your and his body perpendicular
    3. You need to sink your body down, Biggest mistake people make is keeping their body too high. You want your armpit/lat as tight to his neck as possible to his neck
    4. lock your hands around his arm, you don't need to completely push their arm across their face, but if you do it's easy to switch to an arm triangle
    5. once you're secured start rolling your hips up and back into him, and bring your hips off the floor and squeeze
    6. If he bridges hard, just keep the arm with hand and post with the other
     
  8. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    thats kind of how I do it, I try to dig mi lat into his ribs if that makes sense, get my hips just enough to transfer all my weight on his ribs. The problem I have with this position when Im facing guys who out weight me a lot is that they bridge very hard and I have to post with my hand thats keeping the arm trapped (this is when im just controlling the position not when im going for the josh barnett choke or whatever its call), they use this moment to get the elbow back to the mat and escape.
     
  9. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    Lat into his ribs? You want the lat of your arm around his neck to be as tight as possible to his neck. Which side are you talking about?

    and if your positioning is correct and you are perpendicular. He can only bridge away from the trapped arm and try to roll you through. when he does this just keep the crook of his trapped arm hooked, post with the hand that goes away from the neck and immediately settle back

    One thing that might help as much as the individual details is to approach the position as a "pin" or trying to pin them. I know bjj doesn't end matches on pinning lol. But to pin the persons shoulders flat and keep them there you have to have perfect positioning and the sub almost happens organically.

    Little person tip for finishing the submission/barnett choke, when bridging and squeezing make sure your hips/front are pointed at the sky, not sideways, common mistake. Helps make it less of a crank too and more of a choke
     
  10. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    if you feel the elbow slipping immediately almost do a switch like motion away from his legs and come around behind. If you understand the position and know when to bail, when you turn/bail you should beat him, because they are focusing on escaping before taking your back

    The state tournament is this weekend. So hopefully I'll be able to finally make some technique vids explaining/showing this "wrestling stuff" :)
     
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  11. DanTheWolfman.com

    DanTheWolfman.com Brown Belt

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    My first grappling vids that really blew up on my old channel
    I am thinking I give about 32 submissions overall?



    A little low percentage but if you guys get success with this one please msg me somehow,
    I usually just hit from N/S or some other situations
     
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  12. Kirra

    Kirra Orange Belt

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    If you keep your leg at 11-12 o'clock you will stop most bridging attempts. I actually find the wind choke to be easier on big guys.
     
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  13. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    more like ribs on ribs, but the strong part, the lat the one you use to choke people in the NS choke lol, dont know the name in english, I always thought it was lat. The positions is exactly the same as Josh barnett shows.

    [/QUOTE]and if your positioning is correct and you are perpendicular. He can only bridge away from the trapped arm and try to roll you through. when he does this just keep the crook of his trapped arm hooked, post with the hand that goes away from the neck and immediately settle back
    the leg will most likely stop the bridge towards that side, but the person is bridging straight forward (you cant really be at 12 becase thats where the opponets head is, you can though at 11) or a litto to the 1 o clock and will force you to post. I have lots of success tapping people smaller, my size and a little bigger, but when the weight difference goes beyond 10 kilos, is very hard to even keep the position (while putting pressure)... I guess I have to keep working on the position, never the less I love it, much more than kuzure, as a matter of fact, I dont like kuzure at all...
     
  14. dmwalking

    dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

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    I love when guys go for kesa. One of my favorite reversals comes from there. I personally don't use it.
     
  15. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    and if your positioning is correct and you are perpendicular. He can only bridge away from the trapped arm and try to roll you through. when he does this just keep the crook of his trapped arm hooked, post with the hand that goes away from the neck and immediately settle back



    the leg will most likely stop the bridge towards that side, but the person is bridging straight forward (you cant really be at 12 becase thats where the opponets head is, you can though at 11) or a litto to the 1 o clock and will force you to post. I have lots of success tapping people smaller, my size and a little bigger, but when the weight difference goes beyond 10 kilos, is very hard to even keep the position (while putting pressure)... I guess I have to keep working on the position, never the less I love it, much more than kuzure, as a matter of fact, I dont like kuzure at all...[/QUOTE]
    Idk how to explain better without video lol
     
  16. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

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    Depends on how you define 'arm triangle'.
     
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  17. sixfifteen

    sixfifteen White Belt

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    Gerbil at Great Grappling on Youtube posted some good instructionals on this. I particularly liked his tips on getting the trapped arm into the leg americana. I've found threatening an ezekiel choke works well to force your opponent to react and give you a chance at that arm.
     
  18. Kirra

    Kirra Orange Belt

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    Feel free to post the escape.
     
  19. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    you should try it out, its awesome.
     
  20. Thunderhead

    Thunderhead Assman Extraordinaire

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    I love the Kesa Gatame. It's great. If you place the weight of your torso on the right area of your opponent/partner (the ribcage is the sweet spot), you can pin him down with minimal effort, and even cause discomfort on him.

    In my AV, I'm performing an ude-garami lock on my opponent with my legs figured four. That's my go-to move when I'm in that position. And then there are some other transitions I can make if I fail to lock in that Americana...
     
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