Leglocks - why so neglected?

[Commissar]

Don't worry, I'm not an idiot. I may have been doing BJJ for 6 months, but I read up on it a LOT before I started. And I'm constantly studying instructionals, and learning more.

Before I even stepped into my gym, I knew that you can't crank leg locks. I go light with them. Usually, I'll lock it on, and just hold that position, and see if the guy wants to tap at that point. Some guys don't really want to roll past that, so they tap if I have it locked on. Other guys will keep going, and I'll progressively apply pressure. If it's a totally new guy, and he just doesn't understand that you can't wait too long to tap to a leg lock, I'll just let go and go for something else.

So yeah. I'm not one of those heel hook heroes who likes to crank leg locks. I just think they're important to train.

Makes sense, but there's a *huge* difference between training Jiu Jitsu, and studying instructionals.

 

[Half Boston Crab]

Fight_Song:
if it's not working for you it's because you're too far down on their leg. get the top of their foot near their toes under your armpit and the blade of your forearm in their achillies tendon and go from there.

Yes, and you should also think about not arching your back too soon. You should curl your back forwards first like a hunchback so that you're able to arch really far and make sure that the hold is really tight. Then arch back and put on the pressure. If you do it like that it becomes really powerful.

Fight_Song:
btw, the indian deathlock is much to underrated. i was in the half guard and tied up a purple's feet with my foot while i was fainting a keylock on his wrist. he didn't tap bit his feet where tied and in pain untilt he bell rang. woot!

Fuck yeah! I do it often from top half guard. I also do it sometimes when I go for a spin back kneebar and he resists by figure fouring his legs. Just spin all the way back to half guard again and put him in a leg pretzel.

Concerning heelhooks, it's a good thing to have a catch and release policy when you spar. Get the hold properly and just wait for five seconds without twisting. If he hasn't gotten out of the hold by then, it's safe to say that you would have owned him in a match.

 

[Soid]

Makes sense, but there's a *huge* difference between training Jiu Jitsu, and studying instructionals.

Well he's been training BJJ for 6 months and already tapped instructors and purple belts with footlocks. I'm sure it's helped him defeat his instructors.

 

[Braziluvr]

Good question. During the Fedor CroCop fight, I saw several opportunities where Fedor could have thrown a heelhook or an Achilles hold on Mirko no prob. Maybe he wanted to punish him for 3 rounds, who knows. When you commit to a leglock, you're vulnerable to getting punched, and with MMA having so many excellent strikers these days, this could be a factor.

 

[Jason Pair]

Not sure if I've posted on this yet. But I LOVE leglocks, they're my favorite submission, I catch them on everybody. I've actually stopped doing them much in training with my usual training partners becauses my achilies ankle lock is damn near my 100% move. I agree with the fact leglocks are neglected in traditional brazilian jiu-jitsu but I don't quite agree with the original post.

I train heelhooks so I can catch one in the fight (MMA), but I never do heelhooks rolling, never once have I actually cranked one I'll catch the position hold it, then let go and transition to an achilies to finish or let go and claim dominate position (usually I can get to sidecontrol before the guy can get up himself, if not I'll get in his guard and work for a pass).

When I first started at my current school I was basically all self-trained I watched competition tapes, MMA fights, and would roll with whoever I could find.. never watched a single instructional because I honestly don't believe you learn as much effective technique in them. First week I actually caught one of our purple belts in an achiles ankle lock and got the tap (We train leglocks quite abit now, I'm just good enough with them I can counter off a counter.. ect..) Now it was quite awhile later 'til I tapped him again.. basically when my takedowns got better and I could pass his guard and work for something.

However my first day of rolling we had two guys who just completely kicked my ass on the ground, I'd been to other places to roll and basically either hung or dominated. But it was these two guys schooling me on the ground like I'd never been schooled before that made me realize I chose the right academy to train at. Now I guess you can say I'm a freak of nature on the ground, honestly that's what everyone has told me, in a few months I was hanging with one of the guys (haven't rolled with the other in a long time) doing 5 and 10 min rounds neither of us would catch eachother. Now when we just roll 40-50 min rounds he'll catch me two or three times, and I'll catch him with something about the same.

Now I honestly thought maybe it's the jiu-jitsu here maybe we don't train hard enough.. So I went to some other schools and realized I EASILY tapped out their purple belts, tapped out a purple that teaches at a school in the area.. Easily. And I don't mean just caught a leg, I mean I passed the guard, took the back, or passed the guard, caught an arm.. ect.. And I realized.. shit we have the best jiu-jitsu in the area.

Basically all that is to say I believe you could possibly be tapping purple's however I wouldn't think so much into catching heelhooks or twisting footlocks because some people probably tap before feeling it. (Once I screwed up and gave up a heelhook to one of our really good guys, I did not feel any pain/pressure at all but I just tapped because I knew he had it secured good and I have enough knee/ankle problems..

Just keep training, be sure you learn to keep guard and pass the guard. And watch who you try twisting footlocks on. Because just about 20mins ago I was helping my bro learn to pass a good open guard just pushing off the hips.. readjusting.. ect.. making him work to pass. And for some stupid ass reason he thought it'd be a good idea to spin for a kneebar on the knee I fuckin' popped yesterday that I can hardly walk on. So I triangled started sitting up, and this fuckin' dumbass.. I guess he's been watching too much oldschool Bas/Pancrase tapes started fucking twisted my injured ankle that something is messed up in.. Needless to say I took the back and applied a brutal crossface/neck crank.. Catch style.. Basically almost made him cry.. And this was my brother.. If a complete stranger starts trying to retard strength twist/crank an ankle that has been giving me problems I will not hesitate to break an arm, or defend the lock and snap an ankle.

 

[DirectDrive]

FiendishOne..... either you are the next bj penn/rickson, you are full of shit or you are training with people that didn't earn their purples.
i don't know any purples that could be tapped by someone that has been grappling for a few months. bjj must be getting pretty watered down in some areas.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I like learning leglocks but i think one must have a decent base before applying them. Some BJJ practitioners have become too fancy that the fundamentals like basics positioning, sweeps and guard passes are getting neglected. The only thing I have against leg locks is if you keep going for it and not trying anything else. When I was new to BJJ, my sparring partner always went for leglocks so I never really got to develop a good game until later since I had to defend against them mst of the time.

 

[aaron_mag]

Good question. During the Fedor CroCop fight, I saw several opportunities where Fedor could have thrown a heelhook or an Achilles hold on Mirko no prob. Maybe he wanted to punish him for 3 rounds, who knows. When you commit to a leglock, you're vulnerable to getting punched, and with MMA having so many excellent strikers these days, this could be a factor.

I also wondered why Fedor didn't go for some submissions. I also wondered why Mirko didn't try for a guard sweep or something (he seemed in good position to do it a couple of times).

But I think they both were playing it safe. Fedor had top position, he probably didn't want to risk giving it up. I think Crocop would have a pretty damn good GnP. He punched pretty damn hard from the guard...

 

[aaron_mag]

Also...for those of you tapping purples after six months of training.

Don't forget that it is just *class* training. Maybe the guy worked a double shift before he came to class. Maybe the first thing he ate all day was a chili dog just before walking in the door and he is trying not to throw up. Maybe he is taking it easy on you so you can learn. We go to class to learn and get better, not collect 'I tapped so and so' certificates.

In a tournament the same guy might tap you in ten seconds.

 

[mogway]

Because they are considered "cheap" Moves in BJJ

 

[bazookahead]

You need to remember that most people who train, do it for recreational reasons, just to have a little fun and stay in shape. A very small percent train hardcore when you look at the whole picture. A lot of guys who just train recreationally don't want to bust their ankles and get hurt and cause this to miss time at work, etc.. It's just a hobby guys, everybody isn't trying to be the ADCC champ or Pride champion.

www.greenwhaleproductions.com

agreed... and for some of us guys in our 30's who have had more knee surgeries than frequent flier miles or other sports we are involved in (softball, basketball, golf, etc), the prospect of losing your wheels just ain't worth the time necessary to delve deeply into it..

but I do agree that from a grappling sense, it is neglected to the point where someone who excels in it could have a field day in a lot of tournaments before the brown belt level... after that, I wouldn't rely on them as much unless you are uncanny with them...

 

[Jason Pair]

FiendishOne..... either you are the next bj penn/rickson, you are full of shit or you are training with people that didn't earn their purples.
i don't know any purples that could be tapped by someone that has been grappling for a few months. bjj must be getting pretty watered down in some areas.

Actually yes, that's what I was thinking. It's the reason I went to other schools.. Also I never talk about tapping guys I train with. I only talk shit about tapping guys from other schools.

Also I've been grappling for years, however I had basically just had those few months of formal training. Still I believe BJJ is getting watered down in some areas.

However I'm just hoping I'm the next penn and then some.

If anywhere near southeast TN I'd be happy to have a friendly roll. I do not talk shit without having any truth to it, and rightly so, I'd be happily willing to back up my statements..

 

[Jason Pair]

Also...for those of you tapping purples after six months of training.

Don't forget that it is just *class* training. Maybe the guy worked a double shift before he came to class. Maybe the first thing he ate all day was a chili dog just before walking in the door and he is trying not to throw up. Maybe he is taking it easy on you so you can learn. We go to class to learn and get better, not collect 'I tapped so and so' certificates.

In a tournament the same guy might tap you in ten seconds.

I believe I stated in my post inclass training is just that. That was the point of the post. I don't collect "I tapped so and so" certificates. That is exactly why I do not crank heelhooks, perform twisting ankle locks, and I am more than happy to tap if I know my buddy has a heelhook secured and isn't putting pressure.

Also this is why I stated I went to other academies. You name me a single BJJ academy whose guys will go easy on you if you walk in and up front tell them you have trained on the ground and just want to roll with the guys.

I never much had the luxury of guys going easy on me "so I could learn", I asked everyone to just kick my ass on the ground 'til I started to hang.. Because I knew I had the guys I could tap quick, the guys who I'd have to work to tap, and the guys who'd tap me.. I was never an outright beginner, I did know the ground game. But what do you know I was in there every day 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day.. Couldn't exactly get used to going for takedowns from the knees, so I had to work from my back.. Which in the early days resulted in alot of trying to reclaim guard and defending.. Well shit my guard got really fuckin' good.. And I happened to also get to the point of being able to takedown most of the guys (aside from our good wrestlers.. ect.) It is called improvement with training. I do not over-think into tapping this person or that person. I do not even much care about belt rank. I just told the guy I can believe he is tapping purples, but not to overthink it and do nothing but heelhooks.

Now my cardio was insane, I ate well, trained hard.. And that helped me out.. But I've recently had days where I was the guy who just ate the chili dog, the guy who woke up not feeling well.

Also days being the guy who got off work at 4am got home at 5am and slept 'til 7am only to wake up, go to classes at 8am. Then go hit the weights, do cardio, then make my way to the MMA gym.

Exactly, I train for few reasons. I love it, to improve, to help my buddy improve, and to kick the other guys ass in competition.

Lots of people talk shit, lots of guys who talk about tapping so and so would get owned in the tournament. However there is always that one guy who has ridiculously legit abilities..

And honestly, if you are or have any friends near southeast TN I'd be happy to roll.

Hey, maybe the guy'll catch me. But I damn well guarantee he won't have an easy time passing my guard. And if you somehow do have the ability/skill/technique to tap me out in 10 seconds. By all means I would be glad for you that you would be able to, if you want, talk about tapping me out in 10 seconds.

 

[blanko]

my advice is for you to take a bus to cali, la/SD and roll with some of the "purple belts" there. That would open your eyes.

 

[mogway]

my advice is for you to take a bus to cali, la/SD and roll with some of the "purple belts" there. That would open your eyes.

I Double that +1

 

[aaron_mag]

my advice is for you to take a bus to cali, la/SD and roll with some of the "purple belts" there. That would open your eyes.

Actually I think he should go to some tournaments and post the results here. He'll find we all congratulate him and wish him the best.

But talking about tapping some guy in some random class is different. He may be a ground wizard. Cool. But class grappling and a tournament are two different things.

 

[Enron Exec.]

Not sure if I've posted on this yet. But I LOVE leglocks, they're my favorite submission, I catch them on everybody. I've actually stopped doing them much in training with my usual training partners becauses my achilies ankle lock is damn near my 100% move. I agree with the fact leglocks are neglected in traditional brazilian jiu-jitsu but I don't quite agree with the original post.

I train heelhooks so I can catch one in the fight (MMA), but I never do heelhooks rolling, never once have I actually cranked one I'll catch the position hold it, then let go and transition to an achilies to finish or let go and claim dominate position (usually I can get to sidecontrol before the guy can get up himself, if not I'll get in his guard and work for a pass).

When I first started at my current school I was basically all self-trained I watched competition tapes, MMA fights, and would roll with whoever I could find.. never watched a single instructional because I honestly don't believe you learn as much effective technique in them. First week I actually caught one of our purple belts in an achiles ankle lock and got the tap (We train leglocks quite abit now, I'm just good enough with them I can counter off a counter.. ect..) Now it was quite awhile later 'til I tapped him again.. basically when my takedowns got better and I could pass his guard and work for something.

However my first day of rolling we had two guys who just completely kicked my ass on the ground, I'd been to other places to roll and basically either hung or dominated. But it was these two guys schooling me on the ground like I'd never been schooled before that made me realize I chose the right academy to train at. Now I guess you can say I'm a freak of nature on the ground, honestly that's what everyone has told me, in a few months I was hanging with one of the guys (haven't rolled with the other in a long time) doing 5 and 10 min rounds neither of us would catch eachother. Now when we just roll 40-50 min rounds he'll catch me two or three times, and I'll catch him with something about the same.

Now I honestly thought maybe it's the jiu-jitsu here maybe we don't train hard enough.. So I went to some other schools and realized I EASILY tapped out their purple belts, tapped out a purple that teaches at a school in the area.. Easily. And I don't mean just caught a leg, I mean I passed the guard, took the back, or passed the guard, caught an arm.. ect.. And I realized.. shit we have the best jiu-jitsu in the area.

Basically all that is to say I believe you could possibly be tapping purple's however I wouldn't think so much into catching heelhooks or twisting footlocks because some people probably tap before feeling it. (Once I screwed up and gave up a heelhook to one of our really good guys, I did not feel any pain/pressure at all but I just tapped because I knew he had it secured good and I have enough knee/ankle problems..

Just keep training, be sure you learn to keep guard and pass the guard. And watch who you try twisting footlocks on. Because just about 20mins ago I was helping my bro learn to pass a good open guard just pushing off the hips.. readjusting.. ect.. making him work to pass. And for some stupid ass reason he thought it'd be a good idea to spin for a kneebar on the knee I fuckin' popped yesterday that I can hardly walk on. So I triangled started sitting up, and this fuckin' dumbass.. I guess he's been watching too much oldschool Bas/Pancrase tapes started fucking twisted my injured ankle that something is messed up in.. Needless to say I took the back and applied a brutal crossface/neck crank.. Catch style.. Basically almost made him cry.. And this was my brother.. If a complete stranger starts trying to retard strength twist/crank an ankle that has been giving me problems I will not hesitate to break an arm, or defend the lock and snap an ankle.

You will find out how good you really think you are in a tournament. Come here to SOcal and try that shit on Purples in a Tournament even Blue belt division

 

[Jason Pair]

You will find out how good you really think you are in a tournament. Come here to SOcal and try that shit on Purples in a Tournament even Blue belt division

Wow. Try what "shit" exactly. Passing the guard and working for a sub.? Can't make a damn comment without everyone misunderstanding and getting their panties all up in a bunch. What is it that upset you, the fact that I just might have somehow magickally become proficient at the ground before training BJJ? Honestly you guys are starting to sound like all the Mcdojo Karate, TKD prior to 94. So nobody should be good at leglocks either? Because it seems "cheap"? Maybe it isn't a major part of Jiu-Jitsu so we should maybe just throw it out the window. Why don't we all stop training takedowns and just start jumping guard every possible opportunity.

So now all BJJ on the eastcoast is ineffective? I'm not the one making outrageous claims, I just found it unusual I've done aswell as I have and that is a reason I've trained with everyone logically possible. And yes I have recently actually strongly been considering saving up some money for a move, or atleast a visit to South-Cali to train.

Hey just because you've spent 3-4 years still at whitebelt or low blue belt level doesn't mean everyone else is the same. BJ Penn was winning championships and made Black belt in around 3 and a 1/2 years, Lloyd Irvine was also Black belt in around 4 years.

For sure I'll train at several places in Cali. To learn obviously, not to tap so and so out. Plenty of good schools in the south however.. Like I said I'm not the one making outrageous claims.. Bus ticket to Cali however is a good idea.. I was thinking a cheap plane ticket. You know, I'm a nice guy. After this semester ends you buy me the ticket and I'll be glad to roll with you at your academy before I make it to Gene and Gokor's to get re-humbled.. Ooh, but let me guess they don't have their BJJ blue belts, so they aren't any good are they? However most my time will be spent training with Allan Goes since he wants me to make a trip to Cali to train and to fight for him if 'n when he puts together a small show. So I'm sure I won't waste much valued time just to get a guy on the internet to stop talking shit.

How about I enter the next Casca Grossa, or maybe Naga Georgia. So what division do I enter no-gi intermediate.. advanced? Or hell maybe I should enter the pro-division. Because I apparently said I was tapping out black belts and BJ penn himself.

 

[Jason Pair]

Hey infact. Maybe sometime I could make it down to Georgia and go roll with Forrest Griffin. After he catches me I can come on here to hear you guys say he's an average maybe below average purple belt and random guy #1 from your club is better because he's been training longer. Guess I better do it before Forrest makes brown, because that fucker is good.

 

[Gsoares2***]

You cant blame people for giving you so much shit. You are awfuly cocky. Your talking as if your the next bjj mesiah and you have no crudentials... except i guess a purple belt gave you a leg and you latched on like a starving child and he tapped because he knew he had some rookie hanging on one of the two apendages he uses to Stand, Walk, and basicly live a normal life.


If you have "developed" such a good ground game.. quit working on your keyboard skills and we will see you winning the next Adcc........ see you there.