Learning the art of kicking. Pointers?

[Fire of Youth]

That is what I was going to do initially, but I wanted to see what kind of turnover I would have from the inititial thread. I'll probably be posting a video tomorrow (hopefully).

I look forward to seeing it. :icon_lol:

 

[jdturner11]

I just started kicking too, man.


I just think of it like hooks coming from my pelvis. Using momentum, turning, your leg following like a sledge hammer.


That's what helped me a ton, it's the only thing that's getting me through this beginning process. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[cms9690]

Bump for video update.

 

[pheonix5]

I found Savate to compliment boxing pretty well. Maybe check into that.

I worked with this guy. He knows his shit.

 

[cms9690]

I found Savate to compliment boxing pretty well. Maybe check into that.

I worked with this guy. He knows his shit.

Hey hey, that was some good stuff. Thank you.

 

[cms9690]

Bump for video review.

 

[OneHitHinkson]

Try not to just sling your leg out there on your roundhouse. Take the time to make sure you're fully turning your hips into the kick to get the most out of it.

 

[Discipulus]

we have a bag strapped to a pole against the ring...i love kicking that thing. i understand needing to kick the swinging heavy bag for footwork purposes.

for whatever reason, kicking that bag against the pole just feels best to me...solid. pretty damn hard at the bottom, so good for shin conditioning.

We used to have one of those too. It was the bomb. Unfortunately, it got taken down to make space for the crossfit equipment that now occupies one side of the gym. :icon_sad: Ah well.

Anything's better than the bags that touch the ground. Those are okay for kicking, but I always end up hyperextending my shitty left elbow on those things when I punch, because the bag moves too easily.

TS, you need to get your head off-center and drop your elevation a little for those low kicks. Think of throwing a cross, the motion of your body is similar, just with a more exaggerated outward turn of the lead foot and knee. But you should be dropping down into your left hip (for the right kick).

Try this drill. I've recommended it many times, and I still stand by it. This is what helped me learn to kick and, while I'm not the best, I feel very comfortable employing my hip and pivoting because of it. Watch the whole video to see the drill in the second half.



Edit: Note that this isn't the way an actual kick should land, for the most part. You don't push when you kick, you chop. But learning to extend your hip through the follow-through portion of the kick really gives you a good sense of the motion when throwing a full speed kick. Also, and this is advice you've probably heard, but you should be aiming your kick through the target, not at it. If your throwing a right low kick, for example, you ought to aim for the opposite side of the opponent's right leg. Kick through your target.

 

[Fire of Youth]

Bump for video update.

After seeing your movement I agree with the majority of people in this thread. You are attepting to kick with your leg instead of your body. Just like in boxing where you try to get as much of your body weight behind the punch as possible, you need to get as much of your body weight behind the kick as possible.

Here are a few things to work on. Work through them sequentially because the skill of one contributes to the others.

1) Pivot your support foot. This is where the majority of your power comes from. If you get this then you have the most important part of the kick. Think about it. If you move your bog toe then your ankle moves which moves you hips which moves your shoulders which means your whole body is behind the kick. The kick starts with your big toe. You know you are pivoting enough when the heel of your support leg is pointing at your target when you connect. REMEMBER: POINT YOUR HEEL AT YOUR TARGET WHEN YOU CONNECT.

2) Point your knee in the dirrection you want to hit. This sounds easy but once you add the next step (hip push), this becomes considerably harder. If your not very flexible in the groin/hips (which appears so) then you will likely start pointing your knee down which means you will hit with the outside of your leg with little power. If you point your knee too high then you are likely not pivoting enough and you are just kicking with your leg instead of your body. You could practice throwing knees if it helps.

3) Push your hips over. The very good vid that Discipulus posted shows this movement well. The pushing movements in the vid are designed to strengthen all the muscles used to push the hips over. Chances are that this is where your body mechanics will fail until you build the appropriate flexibility and strength. Practice slowly pushing the heavy back with steps 1-3. You ego wont like it but your kicking technique will. Speed it up later to get nice impact with the body weight going through it.

4) Keep your double high guard and turn your shoulder over. I know the choice of whether to whip the arm on the kicking side down or to keep it up is a matter of personal choice. And indeed you can go back to whipping the arm down later. But to help you learn to throw your whole body into the kick, practice with both hands high and turn the shoulder over.

Once you feel TOTALLY comfortable with this then you can make gradual changes to your technique. For example whipping your hand down speeds up the kick but at the sacrifice of power in the same way that snapping through the knee will spped up the kick but locking the knee will give more power. But you need to master steps 1-4 before you should even be bothered with this. When you get to here, come back with new videos and then everyone here can help you refine your technique.

Watch the vid Discipulus put up and you can see steps 1-4 all synchronising well.

 

[Discipulus]

Fire, I agree with everything you said except for the part about keeping a double forearm guard while kicking. I think it throws you off balance and takes power out of the kick.

I have an instructor at my school who teachs a similar concept, and I disagree with his reasoning too. He teaches that it is wrong to counter-rotate the upper body, with the reasoning that it works against the kick. This sounds nice, but most experienced kickers will agree that simply throwing the upper and lower body in the direction of the kick is bad for both balance and power. If your turn your shoulders completely in line with your hips, you get weight into the kick, but less explosive power. The act of pulling the hips through using the oppositional rotation of the upper body puts the extra snap on the end of the kicking motion.

Watch the hardest kickers kick and you'll see what I mean.



Can't go wrong learning from Samkor for powerful kicks.

 

[Fire of Youth]

Fire, I agree with everything you said except for the part about keeping a double forearm guard while kicking. I think it throws you off balance and takes power out of the kick.

I have an instructor at my school who teachs a similar concept, and I disagree with his reasoning too. He teaches that it is wrong to counter-rotate the upper body, with the reasoning that it works against the kick. This sounds nice, but most experienced kickers will agree that simply throwing the upper and lower body in the direction of the kick is bad for both balance and power. If your turn your shoulders completely in line with your hips, you get weight into the kick, but less explosive power. The act of pulling the hips through using the oppositional rotation of the upper body puts the extra snap on the end of the kicking motion.

Watch the hardest kickers kick and you'll see what I mean.



Can't go wrong learning from Samkor for powerful kicks.

Samkor is beautiful to watch.

 

[cms9690]

TS, you need to get your head off-center and drop your elevation a little for those low kicks. Think of throwing a cross, the motion of your body is similar, just with a more exaggerated outward turn of the lead foot and knee. But you should be dropping down into your left hip (for the right kick).

Try this drill. I've recommended it many times, and I still stand by it. This is what helped me learn to kick and, while I'm not the best, I feel very comfortable employing my hip and pivoting because of it. Watch the whole video to see the drill in the second half.

I think that makes sense for the comparison of a low kick vs a cross. I was told by my instructor tonight (as well as in this post now, heh) that I should be pivoting on my posted foot so that my heel faces my target almost, does that strand true with low kicks as well?

That drill looks awesome, I'll probably be employing that during my next session.

Thanks.

After seeing your movement I agree with the majority of people in this thread. You are attepting to kick with your leg instead of your body. Just like in boxing where you try to get as much of your body weight behind the punch as possible, you need to get as much of your body weight behind the kick as possible.

Here are a few things to work on. Work through them sequentially because the skill of one contributes to the others.

1) Pivot your support foot. This is where the majority of your power comes from. If you get this then you have the most important part of the kick. Think about it. If you move your bog toe then your ankle moves which moves you hips which moves your shoulders which means your whole body is behind the kick. The kick starts with your big toe. You know you are pivoting enough when the heel of your support leg is pointing at your target when you connect. REMEMBER: POINT YOUR HEEL AT YOUR TARGET WHEN YOU CONNECT.

2) Point your knee in the dirrection you want to hit. This sounds easy but once you add the next step (hip push), this becomes considerably harder. If your not very flexible in the groin/hips (which appears so) then you will likely start pointing your knee down which means you will hit with the outside of your leg with little power. If you point your knee too high then you are likely not pivoting enough and you are just kicking with your leg instead of your body. You could practice throwing knees if it helps.

3) Push your hips over. The very good vid that Discipulus posted shows this movement well. The pushing movements in the vid are designed to strengthen all the muscles used to push the hips over. Chances are that this is where your body mechanics will fail until you build the appropriate flexibility and strength. Practice slowly pushing the heavy back with steps 1-3. You ego wont like it but your kicking technique will. Speed it up later to get nice impact with the body weight going through it.

4) Keep your double high guard and turn your shoulder over. I know the choice of whether to whip the arm on the kicking side down or to keep it up is a matter of personal choice. And indeed you can go back to whipping the arm down later. But to help you learn to throw your whole body into the kick, practice with both hands high and turn the shoulder over.

Once you feel TOTALLY comfortable with this then you can make gradual changes to your technique. For example whipping your hand down speeds up the kick but at the sacrifice of power in the same way that snapping through the knee will spped up the kick but locking the knee will give more power. But you need to master steps 1-4 before you should even be bothered with this. When you get to here, come back with new videos and then everyone here can help you refine your technique.

Watch the vid Discipulus put up and you can see steps 1-4 all synchronising well.

Response to bolded text.
1.) Got it, I'll be implementing that heel rotation asap. My instructor said that was the biggest flaw that caused the most inconsistencies in my kicks.
2.) My kicking ROM is pathetic, is there a stretch (static or active) that I can do to help this? (aside from the exercise posted in the video) I already do groiners, exagerated mountain climbers, and fire hydrants daily to help get my hips/groin open.

Thank you.

 

[Fire of Youth]

My kicking ROM is pathetic, is there a stretch (static or active) that I can do to help this? (aside from the exercise posted in the video) I already do groiners, exagerated mountain climbers, and fire hydrants daily to help get my hips/groin open.

Thank you.

I understand the feeling well. I have naturally crappy groin hip flexibility. Flexibility training will always help (after every hot shower/bath). You can always practice swinging your leg over the back of a chair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI7L473CI4s

Personally, I have so much scar tissue from repeated injuries that I had to abandon traditional technique in favour of a driving drowning kick technique. I stopped trying to fight my body and went with it instead. I wouldn't recommend even considering this until you have adequately attempted proper traditional technique after developing your flexibility. I'm just giving context to my technical differences and to show that if worse comes to worse there are other options.

Remember that you don't need to kick high to be effective. Since your hands are your strength, you can use your kicks to attack their legs. It changes the levels of attacks, will flow off/into your punches well and will effect their base of support thus weakening your opponents punches. Do some youtube searches for Steve Moxon to see what I mean. You can always start to lift the kicks higher as your flexibility increases later.

 

[Discipulus]

In my experience, kicking flexibility improves with, well... more kicking. The more you kick and the more comfortable you are utilizing your hips in that way, the easier it will be to throw dynamic kicks. I couldn't kick head height two years ago. Now, especially after warming up, I find it to be relatively easy. It's hard to gauge that on the bag, too. I find that, when you put a real person in front of me for light sparring, I can gently put my shin against the side of their head without too much difficulty. Just make sure you warm up with some rope skipping, or a run, some shadowboxing, and some low/mid kicks before working on your high kicks.

And yes, your instructor's advice is good. Some people don't pivot as much. Me, I pivot to that degree. Here is me kicking:



4:21 is a good example of how far I pivot. Ignore the shitty boxing and shitty left kicks, by the way. :wink: But you can see that, at the moment my kick lands, my heel is usually pointed more or less at the target, or it's just slightly less than.

 

[cms9690]

I understand the feeling well. I have naturally crappy groin hip flexibility. Flexibility training will always help (after every hot shower/bath). You can always practice swinging your leg over the back of a chair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI7L473CI4s

Personally, I have so much scar tissue from repeated injuries that I had to abandon traditional technique in favour of a driving drowning kick technique. I stopped trying to fight my body and went with it instead. I wouldn't recommend even considering this until you have adequately attempted proper traditional technique after developing your flexibility. I'm just giving context to my technical differences and to show that if worse comes to worse there are other options.

Remember that you don't need to kick high to be effective. Since your hands are your strength, you can use your kicks to attack their legs. It changes the levels of attacks, will flow off/into your punches well and will effect their base of support thus weakening your opponents punches. Do some youtube searches for Steve Moxon to see what I mean. You can always start to lift the kicks higher as your flexibility increases later.

I started practicing with the first technique where the guy holds onto the cage while pivoting his heel that was demonstrated in:

It is already making a world of a difference.

I watched a couple Steve Moxon videos. Man, can he throw! I've yet to see him connect with those random flying knees that he does, but his boxing is great looking and I see what you mean about just throwing in low kicks with boxing.

 

[cms9690]

In my experience, kicking flexibility improves with, well... more kicking. The more you kick and the more comfortable you are utilizing your hips in that way, the easier it will be to throw dynamic kicks. I couldn't kick head height two years ago. Now, especially after warming up, I find it to be relatively easy. It's hard to gauge that on the bag, too. I find that, when you put a real person in front of me for light sparring, I can gently put my shin against the side of their head without too much difficulty. Just make sure you warm up with some rope skipping, or a run, some shadowboxing, and some low/mid kicks before working on your high kicks.

And yes, your instructor's advice is good. Some people don't pivot as much. Me, I pivot to that degree. Here is me kicking:



4:21 is a good example of how far I pivot. Ignore the shitty boxing and shitty left kicks, by the way. :wink: But you can see that, at the moment my kick lands, my heel is usually pointed more or less at the target, or it's just slightly less than.

1.) Haha, that is good to hear! Right now my hips still feel tight and it's a pain to balance my knee up while holding a pivot on my posted leg.
2.) Your kicks are smoooooth brotha!
3.) Your MT is pretty awesome looking, how long have you been training boxing specifically?
4.) Should that be the ending goal of each kick right now? Getting my heel pointing torwards my target?

 

[Discipulus]

1.) Haha, that is good to hear! Right now my hips still feel tight and it's a pain to balance my knee up while holding a pivot on my posted leg.
2.) Your kicks are smoooooth brotha!
3.) Your MT is pretty awesome looking, how long have you been training boxing specifically?
4.) Should that be the ending goal of each kick right now? Getting my heel pointing torwards my target?

1. Yeah, my advice would be to just keep kicking. The necessary strength and flexibility comes with time.

2. Thanks for the compliments, but I promise this isn't my best work! I've been working on my boxing and my left kick, since my right kick is about the only thing I actually like about my bagwork in this video.

3. I just take classes for Muay Thai. I started about five years ago in high school, but really started seriously training last year. Everything I know about boxing is from Sherdog, most of it from Luis Monda, aka Sinister. I've been obsessed with improving my boxing skills for some time now, and I think I'm starting to see some results, i.e. not leaning forward on my cross, like I do in the video I just posted; and having more power and balance in my footwork and punches.

4. Since it works for me, and since your coach is advising it, I would say yes. Try to get a very deep pivot on your kick, and do it for both legs! A lot of people don't pivot as far on their lead kick as they do on the rear kick and that's okay, but it can't hurt to develop the capability. So use that hip extension drill (on a partner or a bag), practice just lifting your knee and pivoting your foot while turning the foot over, and keep kicking.

 

[peanut66]

I started practicing with the first technique where the guy holds onto the cage while pivoting his heel that was demonstrated in:

It is already making a world of a difference.

I watched a couple Steve Moxon videos. Man, can he throw! I've yet to see him connect with those random flying knees that he does, but his boxing is great looking and I see what you mean about just throwing in low kicks with boxing.

i think you can find a lot better videos demonstarting kicking technique than this one ,

a persons body has to flow with the kick , not make all kinds of unnatural motions prior and during the kick ,

the type of kick illustrated in the video would be used off the clinch or very close situation , where you want to chop around your opponents legs ,

my best advice i can give you fledgling kickers , dont only kick a bag , get a partner and move around , this will get you to flow and to discover range and train you to kick and be more dynamic with your striking in general , if you only train on a bag you turn into a big sack of potatoes with a 12" kicking range , this is why you see muay thai train with pad holders and follow them around .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

i posted a video of baukaw kicking pads , his kicks do not resemble the type of kick as illustrated in the other video , his whole body flows into the kick , sometimes we make things more difficult than they acually are , a kick has to feel natural to the body , as if you are running , not all disected and contorted .

 

[Phlog]

I'd recommend not kicking past your ROM, its a good way to pick up strains/pulls if your not careful.

On the guard front: you can maintain a decent guard and still counter rotate. I find having my arms flailing about worsens balance. Thanks for posting a vid of your homework Discipulus, if I might use it as an example: a straight or overhand right counter to your right roundhouse would be entirely unguarded. I have been taught to anticipate the counter to kicks even if you don't find the kick as fluid, a solid ready defence is very useful until you get as good as the expert professional fighters who relax more.

Whaddya think?

 

[Discipulus]

I'd recommend not kicking past your ROM, its a good way to pick up strains/pulls if your not careful.

On the guard front: you can maintain a decent guard and still counter rotate. I find having my arms flailing about worsens balance. Thanks for posting a vid of your homework Discipulus, if I might use it as an example: a straight or overhand right counter to your right roundhouse would be entirely unguarded. I have been taught to anticipate the counter to kicks even if you don't find the kick as fluid, a solid ready defence is very useful until you get as good as the expert professional fighters who relax more.

Whaddya think?

I don't see how moving the head back and off center leaves you totally unguarded. And I don't see a single top level nakmuay kicking with both arms up.



Sticking the glove up in the opponent's face can be useful. But if you're confident of your kick landing at the right range, you get more power and a better recovery by throwing the arm back and the shoulders through the kick. I also shield my chin with my opposite glove, which you can't really see in the video.