Leaning back on left (lead leg) switch kick

[shincheckin]

Hey guys, am wondering what your thoughts and opinions are on leaning back during your swtich kick. I know I am guilty of doing it. How many of you do it? how much is too much? not enough? should it be done at all? Your thoughts?

some pics of myself leaning back during switch kicks

 

[Blowing Dixie]

Ask yourself: What would Buakaw do?

 

[FighterTwister]

Are you driving the power from the ground up twisting the hips?

If so then are you also coiling in the leg if the other guy leans back defensively to unleash a side kick rather than it falling back down?

You know who does that perfectly.................. Saenchai

The guy is amazing to watch I keep saying it just amazing he has got it down perfect........... meaning he will fire one kick then switch it to another, love that!

Leaning back to release an explosive kick is good, leaning to far where your hand touches the ground is not, everything is risk in the hope it connects.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I may not be the most qualified to answer this question but from what I have seen from experts I would try not to lean at all. It will happen anyway unless you have great flexibility.

If you think about it most people can only dynamically lift their leg to a little above hip level before needing to lean back. Like when your left leg goes directly sideways, side split not front split style. And that motion is easier to do than a round kick

 

[ARIZE]

For roundhouses, I lean a bit too, but from both sides, not just for the switch. And I clearly prefer that from the opposite, shrimping while kicking. I also might lean a bit more against punchers.

The problem is that if you lean too much, even if you have good balance, you will be slow to follow with something else. If I receive a leaning round in MT, i feel kinda safe from a combo, and even an advance. You will be slow to close the distance after a kick like that.

Think back when you do the classic exercise with continues roundhouses on the pads. I am guessing you are not leaning that much. But when you do single power ones on the bag, you probably are.

PS: Those fuckers in TKD lean a lot...

 

[MisterHappy]

For me the lean back is more of a range extender than anything. For reasons mentioned above I prefer not to when possible (faster follow up, better balance, etc) but if my opponent is retreating or if I've thrown a combo from a decent distance then I'll lean back a bit more to get my hip as extended out as possible. I think it's my TKD background coming into play tho.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

It's just hip flexibility, the classic style it to be more upright but if it works for you who cares. More upright means that you can drive you body forward into the kick more. Leaning back means that you pivot more around your standing leg, with your upper body being the counter balance. I have more flexibility in my left hip than right, so i stay upright on my left kick and lean back on my right.
One thing one might look at tweaking is your upperbody position. Look how twisted your spine is. Your shoulders are trying to go left and your hips are going right. Instead of trying to swing your arm back, think about if you were kicking underwater and were swimming forwards with your arm. If you look at Jordan Watson here, he has his shoulders and hips all in line and and traveling in the same direction.
Everybody has there own thing, and it might not be for you but i thought id point it out.

Edit: another one with Yod but his arm position is a little exaggerated and in front of his leg

 

[Paradigm]

I'd say ideally not to lean back but flexibility will limit what you can do there.

 

[shincheckin]

I agree with most of everything that has been said. Leaning back is not ideal, but it can be done to add a bit of range as well as height to the kick if your struggling in the flexibility department.

I notice Sam A lean back on his kicks alot as well.

I dont think leaning back is a horrible thing, but maybe not a good thing either.

@ARIZE
I dont really like the shrimping way of kicking either.

Sometimes I do it, sometimes I dont, Most likely unknowingly depending on the height of the kick.

Leaning back definitely makes it hard to follow up a kick with punches. Matter of fact even fully pivoting/rotating makes it hard to follow a kick up with a punch. Lucien Carbin has a kick, in which they dont pivot the hip, as the kick is designed to follow with a punch. I have tried this a few times in sparring, worked pretty good.

A few more upright switch kicks

 

[shincheckin]

If so then are you also coiling in the leg if the other guy leans back defensively to unleash a side kick rather than it falling back down?

The lean back from a head kick in MT is typically followed by a kick or punch, not a sidekick.

If you mean when you kick a guy to the head, he leans back, causing you to miss, why not recoil your kick and turn it into a side kick........Theres too much force in the swing of the kick to have that much control. if you miss, the kicks going to swing right through. There are counters from there though. Once the leg touches the ground, you bring it back like a side kick.

 

[Paradigm]

The lean back from a head kick in MT is typically followed by a kick or punch, not a sidekick.

If you mean when you kick a guy to the head, he leans back, causing you to miss, why not recoil your kick and turn it into a side kick........Theres too much force in the swing of the kick to have that much control. if you miss, the kicks going to swing right through. There are counters from there though. Once the leg touches the ground, you bring it back like a side kick.

I actually like to throw a side/back kick after missing a lead roundhouse too often...it's a natural thing for me now, even though I've never really trained it formally haha. It's great for stopping guys who rush in after you miss a kick but probably should be used occasionally so your opponent doesn't pick up on it and time a parry/counter.

 

[ARIZE]

I actually like to throw a side/back kick after missing a lead roundhouse too often...it's a natural thing for me now, even though I've never really trained it formally haha. It's great for stopping guys who rush in after you miss a kick but probably should be used occasionally so your opponent doesn't pick up on it and time a parry/counter.

Same here, but i think we have discussed it a couple of times already...

@shincheckin

I shrimp only when I go for the clinch after the roundhouse, otherwise I avoid it. Dont like the feeling of my kick that way, and I find it dangerous since one of the hands is down, and often the other is not really glued to the chin.

 

[shincheckin]

It's just hip flexibility, the classic style it to be more upright but if it works for you who cares. More upright means that you can drive you body forward into the kick more. Leaning back means that you pivot more around your standing leg, with your upper body being the counter balance. I have more flexibility in my left hip than right, so i stay upright on my left kick and lean back on my right.
One thing one might look at tweaking is your upperbody position. Look how twisted your spine is. Your shoulders are trying to go left and your hips are going right. Instead of trying to swing your arm back, think about if you were kicking underwater and were swimming forwards with your arm. If you look at Jordan Watson here, he has his shoulders and hips all in line and and traveling in the same direction.
Everybody has there own thing, and it might not be for you but i thought id point it out.

Edit: another one with Yod but his arm position is a little exaggerated and in front of his leg

good points, swinging the kicking arm in a more horizontal direction rather down helps with that. Also helps with bringing the weight forward for a follow up punch

 

[spacetime]

I may not be the most qualified to answer this question but from what I have seen from experts I would try not to lean at all. It will happen anyway unless you have great flexibility.

If you think about it most people can only dynamically lift their leg to a little above hip level before needing to lean back. Like when your left leg goes directly sideways, side split not front split style. And that motion is easier to do than a round kick

You can absolutely affect leans regardless of flexibility. What happens is that It gets so ingrained into your muscle memory that you still do it even when you don't have to.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

What you guys mean by shrimping de kick?

 

[FighterTwister]

The lean back from a head kick in MT is typically followed by a kick or punch, not a sidekick.

If you mean when you kick a guy to the head, he leans back, causing you to miss, why not recoil your kick and turn it into a side kick........Theres too much force in the swing of the kick to have that much control. if you miss, the kicks going to swing right through. There are counters from there though. Once the leg touches the ground, you bring it back like a side kick.

Nope!

How many Saenchai fights have you watched?

I know what you mean, but guys like Saenchai who know how to balance correctly can throw kicks in kicks, from a round house to a front kick or side kick by twisting the hips, because they have very good lateral rotator group mucles, the adductor group, and the iliopsoas group.



Maybe you have never scene guys do it.

Watch Saenchai here some video capture......

 

[Paradigm]

Same here, but i think we have discussed it a couple of times already...

@shincheckin

I shrimp only when I go for the clinch after the roundhouse, otherwise I avoid it. Dont like the feeling of my kick that way, and I find it dangerous since one of the hands is down, and often the other is not really glued to the chin.

Pretty sure we've discussed everything here on this subforum a few times already lol.

What you guys mean by shrimping de kick?

Not fully opening your hips when kicking:

 

[ARIZE]

What you guys mean by shrimping de kick?

What @Paradigm said, but to add a little more detail for better visualization:
You don't allow your hips to open because you turn your torso the opposite way. But some times it's even worse than the pic, because they also bend the torso forwards. For me that's a shrimp kick... Because your supporting leg and torso do a C shape, looking like a shrimp.

 

[shincheckin]

Nope!

How many Saenchai fights have you watched?

I know what you mean, but guys like Saenchai who know how to balance correctly can throw kicks in kicks, from a round house to a front kick or side kick by twisting the hips, because they have very good lateral rotator group mucles, the adductor group, and the iliopsoas group.



Maybe you have never scene guys do it.

Watch Saenchai here some video capture......

So to clarify quickly, were talking about the attacker/kicker, throwing a head kick and when that head kick misses, retracting it into a side kick? If yes than I agree with that, but if you mean to throw a sidekick after leaning back, i suppose its possible, but not a good option IMO. It sounds like your talking about the attacker in regards to Saenchai. Yes Saenchai is awesome man, his techniques are great, flashy, and highly effective, although they are a bit outside of the "muay thai box" mindset. He combines muay boran and possibly other martial arts into his style. I got the chance to meet him and spar with him

Regarding roundhouse kick to side kick, I think that is much easier to do when thrown on purpose, as an attack, rather than unexpectedly missing the roundhouse and combining that into a sidekick. Its a good trick attack, but unexpectedly would prove difficult if you had not trained for it. That being said I did get one opportunity to do this exact move I threw a head kick and pulled it which put me into position to throw a side kick but I did not throw the sidekick because the distance was off

saenchai is crazy fast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7xK0dfeItI

 

[Lucas Coradini]

I see... Thanks for the explanation, guys.

That picture of Yosanklai looks perfect to me (in regards to power and built-in defense)

His core and glutes are engaged in the kick and his whole body mass rotating in unison for maximum weight delivery and you can see how returning to stance to defend any incoming counter strikes would be easy.

Leaning back is cool for the range and height you might gain (as already noted by someone else), but you lose power and the follow ups might be problematic.

Shrimping is the worst. You're lifting your leg with your head dead on the center line.