Lat pulldowns

So even you agree pull ups are the best option. So why would she do lat-pull downs that have little to no carryover to pull ups? That makes absolutely no sense. If she wants to be able to do pull-ups, she needs to do pull-ups. Assisted or negatives. Even inverted rows will help have carry over. You don't even know that she can't do them. Again you are making unfounded assumptions. Just like you keep saying that there is some bias against pull downs and that they are useless. Many times we have stated that pull downs can have there place.

She is not training her body to get better at pullups. She is training pulldowns to make her body stronger. I don't get why you're not getting this. She is not training to get better at pullups.

She's 185 and pulls 60 pounds. Nothing wrong with that - she's just getting started. But she's not doing pullups yet, I'm pretty sure. When she gets to the point where she can do pullups, she should do them. And pulldowns.

What movements you pick will depend entirely upon your goals. Also lat pull downs and pull ups do not work the muscles in the same way. This was explained much earlier in the thread.

So eliminating one of them would eliminate one way of working those muscles. That's undesirable. I think you're getting it, slowly but surely.
 
She is not training her body to get better at pullups. She is training pulldowns to make her body stronger. I don't get why you're not getting this. She is not training to get better at pullups.

She's 185 and pulls 60 pounds. Nothing wrong with that - she's just getting started. But she's not doing pullups yet, I'm pretty sure. When she gets to the point where she can do pullups, she should do them. And pulldowns.



So eliminating one of them would eliminate one way of working those muscles. That's undesirable. I think you're getting it, slowly but surely.

So then she is training pull downs to get better at pull downs? Are you really this dense? Also again you are assuming I told her to never do lat pull downs. That is not the case. If she only continues to do lat pull downs and never does pull ups, than chances are good she will never be able to do pull ups, or it will be a very long time. I already listed ways to progress to full pull ups if she couldn't do any.
 
For what it's worth, this is what Rippetoe has to say about dumbbell bench press:

In fact, the dumbbell version of the exercise, which actually predates the barbell version due to its less specialized equipment requirements, is probably a better exercise for most purposes other than training for a powerlifting competition. This is especially true if the weights used are sufficiently heavy to challenge your ability to actually finish the set. Most trainees use them as a light assistance movement, and never appreciate how hard they are or how useful they can be. They are performed on a simple flat bench, and taking the dumbbells out of the rack or off the floor, getting into position on the flat bench, and getting up with them after the set is finished is a large part of the exercise. Dumbbells — being not tied together between the hands as with a barbell - require more active, conscious control, are harder to do, and are therefore less commonly done. There is a one-handed version, in which only one dumbbell is used, that requires a tremendous amount of core strength to just stay on the bench.
 
Where are the engineers and others with backgrounds in physics?

I have always been convinced that pull-ups are superior to pull-downs because you cannot lift more than your body weight on pull-downs.

If the weight stack is heavier than your body weight, no matter how much force you apply, the stack won't move; YOU WILL MOVE UP. You end up doing a pull-up/cable climb up the cable. Hence these machines have braces to put over your legs. These fix you in place and provide the difference in force needed between the weight stack's weight and your body weight. The net effect is that you only lift weight equal to your body weight.

Is this correct?
 
Where are the engineers and others with backgrounds in physics?

I have always been convinced that pull-ups are superior to pull-downs because you cannot lift more than your body weight on pull-downs.

If the weight stack is heavier than your body weight, no matter how much force you apply, the stack won't move; YOU WILL MOVE UP. You end up doing a pull-up/cable climb up the cable. Hence these machines have braces to put over your legs. These fix you in place and provide the difference in force needed between the weight stack's weight and your body weight. The net effect is that you only lift weight equal to your body weight.

Is this correct?

So I can just stack a ton or so on the lat pulldown and, as long as my legs are secure, I should be able to pull the weight down?


I will give you an analogy. Take a tow truck that is on pure ice. It has no traction at all. I could probably grab it's tow hook and keep it from moving forward from a stop as long as I am on a good non-skid surface. Now take away the ice and add friction from the road (the braces over your legs) and 20 strong men could not stop that truck (probably).
 
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Where are the engineers and others with backgrounds in physics?

I have always been convinced that pull-ups are superior to pull-downs because you cannot lift more than your body weight on pull-downs.

If the weight stack is heavier than your body weight, no matter how much force you apply, the stack won't move; YOU WILL MOVE UP. You end up doing a pull-up/cable climb up the cable. Hence these machines have braces to put over your legs. These fix you in place and provide the difference in force needed between the weight stack's weight and your body weight. The net effect is that you only lift weight equal to your body weight.

Is this correct?

Yeah it doesn't work like that. If it did, then if I had a chain attached to the rafters in my basement, secured myself to the ground and pulled on the chain, I'd be able to rip down my rafters as if it were only my bodyweight I was pulling.
 
For what it's worth, this is what Rippetoe has to say about dumbbell bench press:

This is the order of control needed, descending order:

Dumbbels bench press > barbel bench press > smith machine bench press (routing a ideal barbebel path)

Are we all clear on these?
 
I do lat pulldowns, as well as pullups. I get good results from both.
 
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So then she is training pull downs to get better at pull downs? Are you really this dense? Also again you are assuming I told her to never do lat pull downs. That is not the case. If she only continues to do lat pull downs and never does pull ups, than chances are good she will never be able to do pull ups, or it will be a very long time. I already listed ways to progress to full pull ups if she couldn't do any.

She's using an exercise to train her body. I can't spoonfeed it to you on any simpler terms. I don't think you're going to get it. Move along.
 
I am just about convinced you are a cleverly disguised troll.
 
Yep. One that happens to be stronger than you in several lifts. Suck it.

So now that your faulty arguments no longer work you resort to personal attacks? Also you might have a stronger squat than me, if I tested it now, it would likely be close to it. I deadlift significantly more than you, even with my older lift. My bench is likely even with yours.

Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
So now that your faulty arguments no longer work you resort to personal attacks? Also you might have a stronger squat than me, if I tested it now, it would likely be close to it. I deadlift significantly more than you, even with my older lift. My bench is likely even with yours.

Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Looks like I'm older, lighter, and stronger. It's not a personal attack, it's a comparison. No need to get sensitive. Seems to me that results speak louder than this tit-for-tat BS. I'll post my lifts at the end of the month, video them if I can, right when you're doing your comp (good luck in that by the way) and we'll see what's up. I'm pretty sure I can go 365/265/375 right now so you'll have to beat your goal of a 1000 total to keep up with an old man. Again, good luck.
 
Looks like I'm older, lighter, and stronger. It's not a personal attack, it's a comparison. No need to get sensitive. Seems to me that results speak louder than this tit-for-tat BS. I'll post my lifts at the end of the month, video them if I can, right when you're doing your comp (good luck in that by the way) and we'll see what's up. I'm pretty sure I can go 365/265/375 right now so you'll have to beat your goal of a 1000 total to keep up with an old man. Again, good luck.

Dude, I set a powerlifting competition total of 1,045 lbs a month ago.
 
Dude, I set a powerlifting competition total of 1,045 lbs a month ago.

Very nice. Like I said, I could get up off the couch right now, 41 years old, weigh in at 181 and post 1010. I've been training for four months. My goal is 1275 for May of 2011, and I'll get it. So tone it down, tiger.
 
Very nice. Like I said, I could get up off the couch right now, 41 years old, weigh in at 181 and post 1010. I've been training for four months. My goal is 1275 for May of 2011, and I'll get it. So tone it down, tiger.

Then do it. Don't tell me to tone it down, you're the one who brought how much we could lift in to this, not me.
 
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