Lat pulldowns

kicker said:
In the spirit of this thread: Can somebody tell me why people choose barbell bench in front of dumbbell bench press? If most of them agree that more freedom of movements = better results for strenght.
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Barbell = more weight used = stronger.

More weight used = better results for strength.
 
Cratos said:
Barbell = more weight used = stronger.

More weight used = better results for strength.
Click to expand...

I trained for a six-month period at night with no spotter. I used dumbbells because I wouldn't be found in the morning with one across my neck. My gains were very nice, unexpectedly for me, because I had the same mistaken assumption you have here. I am sure, however, that they would have been even better with the addition of the barbell bench. Variety is key.

Yes, for strength in the barbell bench press, the best training movement is... barbell bench press, makes total sense. For training the muscles worked by the bench press, the best movement is not one movement, but a variety of them.
 
Tosa said:
How is that better than neutral grip pull-ups?
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Because it's different. I also do pullups, because I haven't stubbornly, mistakenly, taken them off the menu. And if you want a pullup contest, let's have at it. I'm 41 and fat so I...

1. obviously will benefit from the motivation

2. will enjoy making you work to keep ahead of me

I've been working out for four months, and it's ten and a half months before a PL contest for me. I can do 12 pullups right now. I haven't added weight yet because twelve is my target rep range right now. I do pullups and pulldowns (and rows and dumbell rows and shrugs and low pulley pulls, etc.) in my workout.

Anyone involved in this discussion - feel free to weigh in with your abilities in the movements. It does make sense for someone to be fairly strong (physically) in order to have a fairly strong opinion about a physical movement.

My gym is closed today so I have to go pull down the heavy bag in my garage and put the pullup (actually a lat bar) bar up in my garage if I want to do my back workout today. I just might.
 
Cratos said:
Barbell = more weight used = stronger.

More weight used = better results for strength.
Click to expand...

Then
smith machine bench press = even more weight
what abot that logic?
 
My all-time BW pull-up PR was 25 full-ROM reps (at a lower body-weight though). Right now I should be able to do around 15 good reps and I guess I should be able to hit 18+ if I just focused on them for a week or two (I haven't trained them for a while).

Problem is there is very little lower-trap involvement in those reps (there is almost zero scapular retraction) and most of the pulling power comes from my lats. If I focus on pullups with proper scapular retraction and I stop the set once I can't get that (although I can still pull myself up easily), then I can do half the number of reps or less. I recently started doing wide-grip lat pulldowns with lighter weights for high reps in order to focus on proper scapular retraction in the horizontal plane.

My friend walked it the gym the other day and saw me in the lat-pulldown machine. She was all like "you're using bodybuilding machines now?!". :)
 
cheez whiz said:
Please list the muscles worked with each exercise.
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Leg press has little to no involvement of anything above the waist.

kicker said:
You can say then:

Squat on smith = more weight=more strenght gains, same logic rule.
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A "squat" on a smith machine is kind of an oxymoron to begin with. No stabilization, fixed bar path, inferior. You might be able to do a little more weight, but they aren't necessarily going to make you much stronger.
 
kicker said:
In the spirit of this thread: Can somebody tell me why people choose barbell bench in front of dumbbell bench press? If most of them agree that more freedom of movements = better results for strenght.
Click to expand...

That was the question.
 
The culture around here is generally good, that's why I like reading posts and now posting. But there are a lot of knee-jerk, poorly formed opinions floating around, interfering with and obfuscating the gems of wisdom. Where the rubber meets the road is people's results. If you have fantastic results, or at minimum know of them, make your case.

Example: leg extensions. I'm guessing they are widely ridiculed here. I do them. So does Mariusz Pudzianowski, as part of his routine. I've heard the arguments for pulling them off the menu, but I disagree, and so do some very strong people. It doesn't make me right, but I think to state an opinion one should qualify where they're coming from. If it's just because most everyone on an internet forum is on the same bandwagon, that's not really enough evidence for me.

If anyone wants to weigh in, it would be helpful
 
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miaou said:
My all-time BW pull-up PR was 25 full-ROM reps (at a lower body-weight though). Right now I should be able to do around 15 good reps and I guess I should be able to hit 18+ if I just focused on them for a week or two (I haven't trained them for a while).

Problem is there is very little lower-trap involvement in those reps (there is almost zero scapular retraction) and most of the pulling power comes from my lats. If I focus on pullups with proper scapular retraction and I stop the set once I can't get that (although I can still pull myself up easily), then I can do half the number of reps or less. I recently started doing wide-grip lat pulldowns with lighter weights for high reps in order to focus on proper scapular retraction in the horizontal plane.

My friend walked it the gym the other day and saw me in the lat-pulldown machine. She was all like "you're using bodybuilding machines now?!". :)
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I appreciate your well-formed and qualified opinion. It just got smarter in here.
 
kicker said:
That was the question.
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I would say that a big reason is that people can do more weight with a barbell bench. More weight=ego stroked. You can still get stronger with DB's. If you go from 6 reps with the 55's to 6 reps with the 60's, you've gotten stronger. But, those same people could be doing 6 reps with 165 on a barbell. That is at least a big reason for 90% of the douchebags in the gym.
 
Origins said:
Leg press has little to no involvement of anything above the waist.
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yeah that's not what I asked. Are you a big squatter? Please answer that in addition to answering the previous question.
 
^^^^Yup, i agree with you. Some opinions are good if you want to go around and lift stones or have a belly like you have eaten pilates ball.
 
cheez whiz said:
The culture around here is generally good, that's why I like reading posts and now posting. But there are a lot of knee-jerk, poorly formed opinions floating around, interfering with and obfuscating the gems of wisdom. Where the rubber meets the road is people's results. If you have fantastic results, or at minimum know of them, make your case.

Example: leg extensions. I'm guessing they are widely ridiculed here. I do them. So does Mariusz Pudzianowski, as part of his routine. I've heard the arguments for pulling them off the menu, but I disagree, and so do some very strong people. It doesn't make me right, but I think to state an opinion one should qualify where they're coming from. If it's just because most everyone on an internet forum is on the same bandwagon, that's not really enough evidence for me.

If you want to weigh in, it would be helpful
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't think lat pulldowns should be outlawed or something. They certainly are useful with things like physical therapy or isolating certain muscles. It's just that the vast majority of people would benefit more from pull-ups.
 
Origins said:
Personally, I don't think lat pulldowns should be outlawed or something. They certainly are useful with things like physical therapy or isolating certain muscles. It's just that the vast majority of people would benefit more from pull-ups.
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I am not asking people to choose between pullups and pulldowns.

I am asking people to consider the logic of adding pulldowns to a routine that includes pullups, or to use pulldowns in their workout if they are not strong enough to do pullups.

People would benefit more from a workout that includes the choice of doing pullups and pulldowns than one in which they limit themselves to doing only pullups.
 
cheez whiz said:
yeah that's not what I asked. Are you a big squatter? Please answer that in addition to answering the previous question.
Click to expand...

What do you mean "big squatter?"

What are you asking? The leg press involves the quads, glutes, and hamstrings (if done deeply enough). The properly performed squat uses those muscles along with heavy lower back, upper back, and abs. So, saying that the leg press is better than the squat because you can do more weight doesn't make sense. At least, from the standpoint of getting stronger for athletic purposes. Sure, the leg press can be useful for bodybuilding, certain injuries, or ego-stroking, but since it involves nothing above the waist, it is a totally different exercise than the squat.

In other words, if your lower back is your weak point, you can leg press all you want, it won't help your squat.
 
kicker said:
^^^^Yup, i agree with you. Some opinions are good if you want to go around and lift stones or have a belly like you have eaten pilates ball.
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Heh I don't have any stones to lift and don't want a bigger belly, but I'm not in this to look like Brad Pitt in "Fight Club" either. I lift to get strong.

Anyone who is really strong has the answers already. I try to pay attention to what they do. I may not always agree with it and I don't just copy it without analysis, but it makes sense to me to note what they do.
 
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