Lat pulldowns

[fatcat669]

So, in conclusion, I don't really see a place for lat pulldowns.

That is pretty broad man and i totally disagree with you. its not a pullups vs pulldown debate. im just saying pulldowns are a good accessory movement. im not gonna argue for them , for the same reason i wont waste my time arguing why bicep curls are a good assistance movement (they are).

edit--- oh i see, it was kind of a debate of pullups vs pulldowns already. well i stand by what i said. pullups and pulldowns = both good but i dont see much transfer between the two. you were talking about how to increase pullups by doing pullup variants instead of pulldowns which i agree with.

 

[marcus_kane]

One thing I like about pull-ups is being able to work abs and other muscles at the same time.

Anyway, I didn't know pull-downs had a bad rap, but I prefer pull-ups.

 

[cheez whiz]

The difference between open chain and closed chain has to do with whether what you're are applying force to moves. In a pull-up, you apply force to the bar, but you move. With a lat pulldown, you apply force to the bar and it moves. By itself, this doesn't make one exercises better or worse, but it doesn mean they are different and they won't have as much carryover to eachother.

With bodyweight exercises, the best way to become better at them is to work progressions, and/or do more reps. So if someone can't do pull-ups, then they should use bands, negatives, assisted pull-ups (ideally assisted by a person and not a machine) etc.

Also, if someone can do a pull-up, I see no benefit to using a lat pulldown to poorly mimic a pull-up movement. What would the benefit to this be?

So, in conclusion, I don't really see a place for lat pulldowns.

If pullups were the goal, say that pullups became an Olympic event, I'd agree. Train pullups to do pullups.

However, pullups are simply a tool to make you stronger, in the lats, rear delts, bi's, traps, etc.

Pulldowns also perform that function. Equally as well? Maybe not. Do we always only do the one most efficient and effective exercise for a muscle group when we're at the gym? No. Variety is good physically and mentally, I know I need it. Pulldowns help to fulfill that demand for me. Rejecting them out of hand is uncalled for.

 

[rckvl]

If pullups were the goal, say that pullups became an Olympic event, I'd agree. Train pullups to do pullups.

However, pullups are simply a tool to make you stronger, in the lats, rear delts, bi's, traps, etc.

Pulldowns also perform that function. Equally as well? Maybe not. Do we always only do the one most efficient and effective exercise for a muscle group when we're at the gym? No. Variety is good physically and mentally, I know I need it. Pulldowns help to fulfill that demand for me. Rejecting them out of hand is uncalled for.

Pull-ups have different variations. Though I hate to use the term, I feel that pull-ups develop much more functional strength and have more carry over to other movements such as bench press and deadlift.

 

[fatcat669]

If pullups were the goal, say that pullups became an Olympic event, I'd agree. Train pullups to do pullups.

However, pullups are simply a tool to make you stronger, in the lats, rear delts, bi's, traps, etc.

Pulldowns also perform that function. Equally as well? Maybe not. Do we always only do the one most efficient and effective exercise for a muscle group when we're at the gym? No. Variety is good physically and mentally, I know I need it. Pulldowns help to fulfill that demand for me. Rejecting them out of hand is uncalled for.

fwiw for someone working on scapular issues or something of that nature i think pulldowns are really good, as well as a variety of rows, because the pulldown for me at least allows you to train with a lighter than BW load to focus on moving the scapula right. its a decent accessory movement. the guy i train with does them heavy and with a really wide grip to build a bigger base to bench off of.

 

[Tosa]

Pulldowns also perform that function. Equally as well? Maybe not. Do we always only do the one most efficient and effective exercise for a muscle group when we're at the gym? No. Variety is good physically and mentally, I know I need it. Pulldowns help to fulfill that demand for me. Rejecting them out of hand is uncalled for.

Variety is good. Because it allows for different muscles or points in a movement to be emphasised, and using different movement patterns limits CNS fatigue.

So if I want variety for pull-ups I can make the grip wider or narrower. I can have a suppinated, pronated or neutral grip. I can add resistance through bands, a weight belt, or chains across my neck. I can work different rep ranges, a different numbers of sets. So, I see no reason why the lat pulldown should be included for the sake of variety.

I'll concede that a lat pulldown may be useful for focusing on scapular retraction. Although I'd rather work on scapular retraction with other exercises.

 

[cheez whiz]

Pull-ups have different variations. Though I hate to use the term, I feel that pull-ups develop much more functional strength and have more carry over to other movements such as bench press and deadlift.

I think that the stability of a fixed pull-up bar and the mobility of the lat bar (pivoting, moving) make them two separate exercises that have similar benefits. I would feel comfortable recommending or doing either, but I feel best recommending and doing both. Eliminating one because of some kind of prejudice makes no sense, and neither does saying that since it isn't the most efficient for a certain application, it goes out the window. There are plenty of "second place" movements out there that are perfectly viable and useful, especially in concert with the numero unos.

 

[rckvl]

I think that the stability of a fixed pull-up bar and the mobility of the lat bar (pivoting, moving) make them two separate exercises that have similar benefits. I would feel comfortable recommending or doing either, but I feel best recommending and doing both. Eliminating one because of some kind of prejudice makes no sense, and neither does saying that since it isn't the most efficient for a certain application, it goes out the window. There are plenty of "second place" movements out there that are perfectly viable and useful, especially in concert with the numero unos.

Just because I see the pull up as a more useful movement does not mean I have a prejudice against lat pull downs. Just like if I prefer a BMW over a Hyundai, does not make me prejudice against the Hyundai.

 

[cheez whiz]

Variety is good. Because it allows for different muscles or points in a movement to be emphasised, and using different movement patterns limits CNS fatigue.

So if I want variety for pull-ups I can make the grip wider or narrower. I can have a suppinated, pronated or neutral grip. I can add resistance through bands, a weight belt, or chains across my neck. I can work different rep ranges, a different numbers of sets. So, I see no reason why the lat pulldown should be included for the sake of variety.

I'll concede that a lat pulldown may be useful for focusing on scapular retraction. Although I'd rather work on scapular retraction with other exercises.

For example, I like to attach the handles that have the grips parallel to each other, about 6 inches apart.

It's just handy to have the machine. I am not trying to say pullups aren't the king. I do those (and/or rows) as the primary movement of my back workout. I just like variety, not to mention safety and ease of use.

 

[Tosa]

If you want pull-ups that pivot and move, do pull-ups from rings, rope, or a suspended pull-up bar. The amount of mobility in a lat pulldown is going to be minimal because the movement is fixed at two points (you and the machine).

I don't believe in "second place movements", "first place movements" or anything like that. I believe in doing a specific exercise for specific reasons. The argument that pull-ups are awesome, and pulldowns are kinda-sort-of-like pull-ups, so they're good too doesn't work.

*EDIT*
How the hell are pull-ups not safe? How is a lat pulldown easier to use?

 

[cheez whiz]

Just because I see the pull up as a more useful movement does not mean I have a prejudice against lat pull downs. Just like if I prefer a BMW over a Hyundai, does not make me prejudice against the Hyundai.

It's more like a car and a truck. Just because you prefer a car doesn't mean that you should tell everyone to steer clear of trucks, because they're worthless. There are uses for both, preferences notwithstanding.

 

[rckvl]

It's more like a car and a truck. Just because you prefer a car doesn't mean that you should tell everyone to steer clear of trucks, because they're worthless. There are uses for both, preferences notwithstanding.

Getting off topic. I recommended pull ups to the girl in that thread as opposed to lat pull downs she is doing because she is specifically trying to get stronger for BJJ. I feel that pull-ups are a much better option than lat pull downs in terms of developing over all upper body strength. It's as simple as that.

 

[Tosa]

Except you haven't presented any purpose for lat pulldowns that aren't covered at least as well, if not better by pull-ups. And since there's plenty of ways to vary pull-ups, I see no need to include lat pulldowns for the sake of variety.

 

[cheez whiz]

If you want pull-ups that pivot and move, do pull-ups from rings, rope, or a suspended pull-up bar. The amount of mobility in a lat pulldown is going to be minimal because the movement is fixed at two points (you and the machine).

I don't believe in "second place movements", "first place movements" or anything like that. I believe in doing a specific exercise for specific reasons. The argument that pull-ups are awesome, and pulldowns are kinda-sort-of-like pull-ups, so they're good too doesn't work.

*EDIT*
How the hell are pull-ups not safe? How is a lat pulldown easier to use?

I'll simply agree to disagree. I find that every explanation I prepare to give you is a repetition of something I've already said. Variety. Ease of use. Different angles. Same muscles worked. Go ahead and short yourself a useful exercise. I'm going to go get stronger.

And again I gave an example of a 185 pound person that can pull 60 pounds. A lat machine is easier to use and safer than rigging bands, etc. for them to do pullups they cannot yet do. For me, safety or ease of use isn't an issue, except for the ease of changing attachments on the machine vs doing the same on a pullup bar.

 

[cheez whiz]

Getting off topic. I recommended pull ups to the girl in that thread as opposed to lat pull downs she is doing because she is specifically trying to get stronger for BJJ. I feel that pull-ups are a much better option than lat pull downs in terms of developing over all upper body strength. It's as simple as that.

She can't do pullups. She needs to work those muscles. The ready answer is pulldowns. She may work her way up to pullups, but she needs to start somewhere, and it's not with inverted pullups or band-assisted pullups. That's just dumb. She's a gym novice, have her start easy. She'll make excellent gains with pulldowns as a novice.

 

[cheez whiz]

Except you haven't presented any purpose for lat pulldowns that aren't covered at least as well, if not better by pull-ups. And since there's plenty of ways to vary pull-ups, I see no need to include lat pulldowns for the sake of variety.

 

[Tosa]

] Go ahead and short yourself a useful exercise. I'm going to go get stronger.

Are you suggesting a pull-up contest?

 

[Tosa]

She can't do pullups. She needs to work those muscles. The ready answer is pulldowns. She may work her way up to pullups, but she needs to start somewhere, and it's not with inverted pullups or band-assisted pullups. That's just dumb. She's a gym novice, have her start easy. She'll make excellent gains with pulldowns as a novice.

Or she could work assisted pull-ups. Either with a machine, bands, or somebody giving assistance. Which will have more carryover to developing ability at pull-ups.

How is that better than neutral grip pull-ups?

 

[graedy]

First of all you have to aks yourself a couple of questions:
Do I want to isolate as much as possible my Lats, Rhomboids and rear delts or do I want to train my vertical pulling strength?
What reprange do I want to train in and for what reason?
How many pullups with perfect form am I able to do?

As an example: X wants hypertrophy inhis upper back to get a better base for benching. The reprange that works best for him to accomplish this is 12-15 reps for several sets. He can do 6 Pullups.

The lifts of choice: Lat pulldowns, rows, rear delt raise etc.

In my opinion Lat pulldowns have a place in training to rehab an injury, for strength athletes (given they aren't good enough at pullups in the desired reprange or want to spare their CNS) and for bodybuilders.
All other athletes will almost always be better of using Pullups.
The pulldown can be a tool to teach the motor patterns of a proper Pullup to a weaker athelte (can't do 5+ Pullups with ease) if you don't have bands.

So wether a lift is usefull or not depends on what you wanna accomplish by doing it.

For me in my training the main purpose of Pullups is not to train my upper back (although this does of course happen by doing pullups) but to get stronger at upper body pulling motions.

 

[kicker]

I do both of them, pullups AND pulldowns. Don't see anything bad anything about that. Every machine in the gym is made for a reason. I couldn't do a single pullup, even chinup. Then I started to do pulldowns, progress there and eventually did my first pullup, actualy a couple of them. Now, how is that wrong or bad to your body and strenght training i don't know.

In the spirit of this thread: Can somebody tell me why people choose barbell bench in front of dumbbell bench press? If most of them agree that more freedom of movements = better results for strenght.