Kyokushin style drills

[Mistabutts]

Hi all, I'm a shotokan karateka, and I want to try and incorporate a few kyokushin training methods into my own training, as there are no Kyokushin dojos near me.

I'd imagine there are a lot of similarities, but I want to try the things that are different.

I'd love to hear about your own training methods if you are a Kyokushin practitioner, so please share anything relevant.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Billy no mates]

Hi all, I'm a shotokan karateka, and I want to try and incorporate a few kyokushin training methods into my own training, as there are no Kyokushin dojos near me.

I'd imagine there are a lot of similarities, but I want to try the things that are different.

I'd love to hear about your own training methods if you are a Kyokushin practitioner, so please share anything relevant.

Any advice is appreciated.

Well for starters if you have a willing accomplice you could do a lot worse than trying out a low kicking drill Shihan Cameron Quinn gives a good demonstration of this classic contact drill with the taking it to the mat bods on Youtube,its a Kyokushin essential .

 

[Azam]

Well for starters if you have a willing accomplice you could do a lot worse than trying out a low kicking drill Shihan Cameron Quinn gives a good demonstration of this classic contact drill with the taking it to the mat bods on Youtube,its a Kyokushin essential .

Yeah that's a great drill for knockdown karate but I don't think it's a great drill that's conducive to shotokan karate because that drill is specifically a knockdown drill. TS would have to modify it slightly to make it more applicable to shotokan (head punches) - like for example stepping out & moving your head off centre when throwing a low kick unless TS wants the knockdown drill.





But it's a great drill nonetheless.


EDIT: In my old dojo, we used the 'pushing hands' drill in our Karate - it's a great drill for teaching the dynamics of parrying, parrying counters and using natural movement - also great because it builds muscle memory in a way. It's something that has stuck with me & regularly comes out in knockdown sparring at my new dojo.

 

[shinkyoku]

What is your goal in including kyokushin drills and training methods?
Is it to find things that makes you a better shotokan fighter?
Is it to become ready to participate in open-entry knockdown tournaments?
Is it just because you want to improve your overall karate skills, without caring how it affects your rule-bound fighting skills?

The 3 big difference betwee shotokan and kyokushin are distance, continuity and power.
Shotokan is all about long distances, single techniques or at most 2 techniques, and no- to light contact.
Kyokushin is if not all so atleast a lot, about short distances, long striking combinations without pause, and of course every punch as hard as possible.
The shotokan guys we have had in our dojo has always found this change very hard. Deny them the long range, single technique sniping, by moving in and crowding them, and they are a fish on dry land.

The big mitt is a valuable tool in overcoming the tendency to stay at range and throw single techniques. It is also good physical training.

Also, the heavy bag is your friend. Well actually no, it is NOT you friendly sparring partner, it is an opponent you want to HURT! You need to decondition yourself from the point karate skin-touch level of contact.

Frankly, clever punch/kick combinations is less important than the "punch your way forward until you are ready to drop from exhaustion -then punch some more" training if you want to get into the "kyokushin training methods".
Learn the aggressive power-punching first (it is harder than you think if you are from a point karate background), pick up the technique combos and drill patterns later.

Oh, and if you are going to get into kyokushin fighting you need to do body (and leg) conditioning. Sorry. This is no fun.

 

[SummerStriker]

The thing I don't get about Kyokushin is that if you do those body hardening drills, the way they are punching and kicking the pads are too weak to hurt you.

I see them as flee bites, trying to trick you into lowering your hands so they can kick your head off.

 

[Azam]

Kyokushin is if not all so at least a lot, about short distances, long striking combinations without pause, and of course every punch as hard as possible.
The shotokan guys we have had in our dojo has always found this change very hard. Deny them the long range, single technique sniping, by moving in and crowding them, and they are a fish on dry land.

The big mitt is a valuable tool in overcoming the tendency to stay at range and throw single techniques. It is also good physical training.




Frankly, clever punch/kick combinations is less important than the "punch your way forward until you are ready to drop from exhaustion -then punch some more" training if you want to get into the "kyokushin training methods".

I know this is a bit of topic - but had to mention it because I feel pretty strongly about it.

This is precisely what I don't like about modern knockdown karate or Kyokushin (in bold red) - it's become less of a technical battle. a battle of skill if you will and more a battle of who's tougher or more physical - hence the mentality nowadays of "punch your way forward until you are ready to drop from exhaustion -then punch some more" instead of 'hit and avoid getting hit.'

It's become the standard generic footprint for modern knockdown karate and what's put me off potentially competing in it at some point. There are some guys in modern knockdown who are the exception of course, but for the most part it's become the standard.

It's the drift away from clever punch/kick combinations, or using superior positioning/angles & points of entry to spamming him with strikes until you drop him or using your physicality to beat the opponent.

80's & 90's Knockdown karate was exactly the opposite of what we have today, all about technical skill and not relying on your physique but on your martial skill, more emphasis was made on 'clever kick/punch combinations' than 'punching forward till exhaustion than punching some more.'


Just compare the strike shield work (big mitt) video posted of modern knockdown karate & compare it to Hajime Kazumi's strike shield work in the 90's - huge difference:



You can see the difference between the two videos of strike shield work (this one from the 90's and the one you posted above of recent times) - the one above focusing more on rhythmic 'clever punch/kick combinations' and basic fundamentals (i.e. beat him with strategy/smart fighting not size) whereas the modern one focusing more on 'keep hitting him till your exhausted and then hit him some more' (i.e. beat him by being more physical/tougher).

It's just not with strike shield work - you can see the changes in knockdown tournaments, just watch the 10th open weight tournament final (tariel vs Ewerton) and compare it to the 6th world open weight tournament final (Yamaki vs Kazumi) - you'll see what I'm saying as clear as day - different mentality/approach.

That 80's/90's approach to Kyokushin is what I fell in love with and it's sad to see the change or drift away from the more intelligent approach.

 

[Azam]

The thing I don't get about Kyokushin is that if you do those body hardening drills, the way they are punching and kicking the pads are too weak to hurt you.

I see them as flee bites, trying to trick you into lowering your hands so they can kick your head off.

Don't let it fool you - with gloves on the punches aren't much of a problem at that intensity (you'll survive) but with bare knuckle punches it's painful (can't count how many times I've been socked or put on my knees from punches like that). The same goes for the kick, don't look like they'll hurt but they do.

 

[SummerStriker]

Don't let it fool you - with gloves on the punches aren't much of a problem at that intensity (you'll survive) but with bare knuckle punches it's painful (can't count how many times I've been socked or put on my knees from punches like that). The same goes for the kick, don't look like they'll hurt but they do.

I do impact conditioning every week and I've been invited to be in a couple 10 man kumites, but I don't do Kyokushin. I was shocked at how little force they are applying punching and kicking the way they do. Their full head and long range snap kicks are devastating but I'm more willing to let them hit me in the legs and torso with that flurry than I am to stand in the rain on a cold day.

I think even they know it is bad to, because if you put them in a match with grappling or face punching and that flurry to the torso bs dries up fast - which makes it pointless, needless suffering imo.

 

[shinkyoku]

I know this is a bit of topic - but had to mention it because I feel pretty strongly about it.
snip

That 80's/90's approach to Kyokushin is what I fell in love with and it's sad to see the change or drift away from the more intelligent approach.

Azam. I fully agree that the clever approach is better.
My point about punch your way forward, was intended to "correct" the bad habits of shotokan, and learn to fight in close. To strike hard & continuously, without feeling obliged to retreat out of range after every punch, point karate style. This because in my experience that is the biggest hurdle for shotokan guys dipping their toes into the knockdown karate sea.

I also said that he should pick up the the clever combinations and drills later, after he had gotten used to "let his fist float freely" so to speak. I didnt say he should forget about them.

As for Kazumi

 

[shinkyoku]

I do impact conditioning every week and I've been invited to be in a couple 10 man kumites, but I don't do Kyokushin. I was shocked at how little force they are applying punching and kicking the way they do. Their full head and long range snap kicks are devastating but I'm more willing to let them hit me in the legs and torso with that flurry than I am to stand in the rain on a cold day.

Here is a hint. tell them thay they are going to easy on you with the punches. Kyokushin gioys tend to to go all out in power when sparring outsiders -or even other kyokushin guys in regular training. Trust me, those punches hurt like ****!

I think even they know it is bad to, because if you put them in a match with grappling or face punching and that flurry to the torso bs dries up fast - which makes it pointless, needless suffering imo.

So when suddenly facing a different range and entirely different rules, they are uncomfortable and have to adapt their techniques on the spot? Big surprise. That is like saying those boxing stances are BS because they do not work in MMA.

 

[Torak]

I dont want to highjack the thread, but I would like to ask something since we are talking about karate.

What do you think about Goju Ryu? What is the main characteristic of it? Since you said kyokushin is short distance and volume, then shotokan is distance and single strikes. What is Goju Ryu about and how would you compare it with other karate styles? What are the strong and weak points of this style?

 

[SummerStriker]

Here is a hint. tell them thay they are going to easy on you with the punches. Kyokushin gioys tend to to go all out in power when sparring outsiders -or even other kyokushin guys in regular training. Trust me, those punches hurt like ****!



So when suddenly facing a different range and entirely different rules, they are uncomfortable and have to adapt their techniques on the spot? Big surprise. That is like saying those boxing stances are BS because they do not work in MMA.

Kyokushin fighters think they are training for self defense, which means I can criticize them under open rules.

They weren't going easy. Flurries like that, to the body, are weak and only serve to demoralize you by causing pain. Structurally against a tough person they are useless.

 

[Azam]

Azam. I fully agree that the clever approach is better.
My point about punch your way forward, was intended to "correct" the bad habits of shotokan, and learn to fight in close. To strike hard & continuously, without feeling obliged to retreat out of range after every punch, point karate style. This because in my experience that is the biggest hurdle for shotokan guys dipping their toes into the knockdown karate sea.

I also said that he should pick up the the clever combinations and drills later, after he had gotten used to "let his fist float freely" so to speak. I didnt say he should forget about them.

As for Kazumi

 

[shinkyoku]

I dont want to highjack the thread, but I would like to ask something since we are talking about karate.

What do you think about Goju Ryu? What is the main characteristic of it? Since you said kyokushin is short distance and volume, then shotokan is distance and single strikes. What is Goju Ryu about and how would you compare it with other karate styles? What are the strong and weak points of this style?

Goju ryu is traditionally a close in, in-the-pocket, fight style. In theory.
In reality, sport goju-ryu is more or less identical to shotokan. 60+ years of point karate rules sparring has changed the art, whatever the art may have originally been. Irikumi-go goju-ryu rules is close to kyokushin rules, and from what I have seen, makes the fighters behave similar too. but irikumi-Go (and the light touch version: irikumi-ju) are still very small tournament formats in goju ryu.

Sport rule adaptation practised every day is much more important than obscure underlying principles not trained with resisting opponents.

 

[shinkyoku]

It's a shame though that this method of knockdown is literally non-existent at the moment.

I know you are a IKO1 fan, but you really should take a look at other groups. In shinkyokushin (which I like and do, that is no secret) the more intelligent fighting methods are much more trendy, or in-fashion (for lack of better word).

IKO1 at the moment is the home of sluggfest tactics.

 

[shinkyoku]

Kyokushin fighters think they are training for self defense, .

We do? noone told me that.

They weren't going easy. Flurries like that, to the body, are weak and only serve to demoralize you by causing pain. Structurally against a tough person they are useless.

1. I have seen very powerful guys go down from those "weak flurries". And even more lower their guard allowing a kick to hit.
2. Kyokushin guys are notorious for having tough bodies, no matter what sport they fight in. Even when they are accused of poor defensive skill, they are always acknowledged as being tough SOB

 

[SummerStriker]

We do? noone told me that.



1. I have seen very powerful guys go down from those "weak flurries". And even more lower their guard allowing a kick to hit.
2. Kyokushin guys are notorious for having tough bodies, no matter what sport they fight in. Even when they are accused of poor defensive skill, they are always acknowledged as being tough SOB

 

[shinkyoku]

Hey, if you think that Kyokushin isn't for fighting in open rules, more power to you. I agree.

Kyokushin can be adapted for self defence, especially if you look past the sport aspects, but in its present sport format it is not optimal for it. but then, neither is muay thai or boxing.

I agree that people in Kyokushin are tough. That's a part of why I think the flurries are a little silly.

I have had ribs broken by those "weak flurries" so lets just say that my experiences have been different and leave it.

 

[Mistabutts]

Fantastic insights and some great advice.

I just want to improve as a martial artist in general and Kyokushin interests me immensely.

I'm not going to reply to everyone, but I read it all, and thanks.

There's no Kyokushin dojos near me in Ireland unfortunately, there was one close by, but it closed in 2012 I believe.

I'd compete given the opportunity.

Again thanks! And Osu!

 

[A Muse of Fire]

my gym does a lot of kata. Does that have any application for knockdown tournaments or a more open rule set like mma? Do any of you practice shotokan kata?