Kung Fu?

[H-TARGET]

Thanks, this is more the kind of posting im interested in, Montreal is a bit far for me (from England). The absolute truth about the origin of Muay Thai has probably been lost forever. If you can recommend any books, websites, magazines, authors etc. some time please let me know. Just about everything I have ever read seems to use a timeline that goes Kung fu -> Krabi Krabong -> Muay Boran and Muay Thai. I'll bet the inventor of Muay thai was a Krabi Krabong or Muay Boran expert, did it say? Almost all combat sports are just rules for existing combat systems (boxing being rules for bare-knuckles fighting for instance). So for it not to be descended from Kung fu would Krabi Krabong to have developed seperately, a definite possibility, but I personally doubt it. I don't claim Muay Thai ripped off anything, nor do i claim that Muay Thai is directly born out of Kung fu (it evolved over a great time period I'm sure), my original point was that all Muay Thai techniques are contained within Kung Fu too.

 

[True2KungFu]

H-Target you do eagle claw?

I find in eagle claw , many of the techniques are outdated, but the close quarter grappling and joint locks are good, and the kicks are quite powerful. I became very flexible and quick through eagle claw. However, many people in my class stick to a very rigid stance which is bad.

 

["youngfighterHI"]

Originally posted by sodomaestro
Then I don't see why you post the shit you do. It'd be one thing if you could back up what you say with "yeah, Cung said he'd been doing Muay Thai the last year", but you can't.

Why don't you ask him yourself. And since this is off the topic I'll just say, watch him train he trains like a MT/boxer.

 

[sodomaestro]

Originally posted by akirafists
Why don't you ask him yourself. And since this is off the topic I'll just say, watch him train he trains like a MT/boxer.

"Why don't you ask him yourself" ... what a childish reaction. Now look, you're talking about a professional fighter. I think a lot of the professional standup fighters do more or less similar routines, don't you? MT/Boxers train like a lot of other people, and lots of others train like them. Runners have their routines, and a lot of people train like them. Skaters have theirs, etc, etc, etc.

 

[H-TARGET]

Were did you study? I study under Sifu Julian Dale, a student of Gini Lau. I dont want to get into a debate about who's the best person to study under but I only trust schools that are under the Lau family, I'm not saying all others are bad, but I know that some instructors who claim to teach traditional Eagle Claw aren't teaching the same thing or arent very skilled. The whole debate about Eagle Claw is fierce enough as it is without me adding to it.

Alot of the early techniques are based on Shaolin Long fist (hence the good kicking) and after that you learn more Faan Tzi (lots more punching) and then you get alot more into the grappling. Thats a very generalised description, but the best one I can give here.

 

[ChuteBoxeRocks]

Well...i've searched for an hour on the internet, and the only sites I've found about Muay Thai history who had a valuable bibliography are in french www.webmartial.com is kinda nice.

BTW, the inventor of Muay Thai was Thailand king , Prachao Gua, who wanted a hand to hand combat style for his army. But the thing went popular very very soon.

 

[TenderLoving]

Well, to jump straight into the fray, I've practiced Judo for a couple of years and trained Muay Thai, plus just some seminars in different forms as I'm curious about most things. There is no ultimate thing for everything. 2 years ago I started training Wing Tsun after getting it recommended by my Thai/Kickboxing teacher, because I asked him what was good for self-defense(for you experts out there, it was Leun Ting Wing Tsun.).
I was quite convinced about it's application in self-defense, and I have even been unfourtunate enough to get a chance to use it(mixed up with my Judo and Muay Thai of course , but that is another story. The key about the training we recieved(and pay attention to this, "the training you recieve") was that quickly you learn a basic, effective way to defend yourself. You learn how to dish out damage where it hurts, no rules, then run. Kick, knee in the groin, punch, elbow or even headbutt in the head, throat and eyes. Pinch, bite. Of course I'm over-simplefying it here, but you get the picture.

A big point tho is what you want to use it for, how much time you can use on it/yourself(how fit you are, etc). If my girlfriend wanted to train 2 hours a week to learn just some simple self-defense, I'd want her to train Wing Tsun. At least if she trained under the same style as I trained it. As full-contact as possible, you learn simple, reflexive moves that everyone can do, we practiced grappling and anti-grappling moves, as in a self-defense position you dont wanna be on the ground.
Because if a big guy is dragging her into an alley, remembering that you could try to knee him in the groin as you poke him in the eye with a follow up to the throath and run, at least you have a chance.

That being said, from what I've read and heard, there is of course a tad of mcdojoism around some of it, it all boils down to your instructor.
I was lucky enough to have an instructor who had practiced BJJ, Muay Thai, Escrima, Wing Tsun, Wrestling, and just had a no-bullshit approach.

And as always, cross-training is key, havent we learned that from watching MMA evolve over the last 10 years?

 

[fujita gou]

TKD is pretty

 

[~JM~]

I've seen kung fu done in the west and I have seen kung fu done by people from China. It's two diff arts. In China (pls, not wu shu) the old styles of kung fu like white crane have a lot of stand up grappling in them. Everything from aikido type wrist locks to judo type throws. The emphasis is different because it was a battle field art. You can't take a guy down and work a sub when arrows are flying by. Mas Oyama's style of karate still contain kata from China because of it's ability of build a strong body (sanchin) and the bunkai (application) of the kata translates to self defense easy. my two cents.

 

[WingChun]

Sodo, Cung Le studied Muay Thai for years. Look at his official site. He did Muay Thai, Wrestling, and San Shou.

 

[FISTICUFFS]

Originally posted by WingChun
Sodo, Cung Le studied Muay Thai for years. Look at his official site. He did Muay Thai, Wrestling, and San Shou.

....and that is why he can fight.

 

[Masakatsu Funaki #1]

this has to be the best thread i have read today!

 

[sodomaestro]

Originally posted by WingChun
Sodo, Cung Le studied Muay Thai for years. Look at his official site. He did Muay Thai, Wrestling, and San Shou.

I couldn't find where it said he did it for years. I did, however, see that he says his style is "San shou or Muay Thai". I'm guessing he does so because San shou rules is Muay Thai rules but with all takedowns and throws. Muay Thai in some instances allows elbows in addition to knees (San shou rules vary on this), thus Muay Thai is a style he'll fight.

I've never claimed Muay Thai is inferior to San shou, or vice versa. I've never claimed one style is the quicker to success. I do see them as different. For one, clinch is different because San Shou fighters will want to throw, and San shou has regulated the use of elbows and knees. Secondly, San shou to me is an application in fighting of an underlying system ... it is not a "system" by itself. Simply rules and regulations.

So, the fighting styles are similar, except for what I said above. The training styles may be similar, too. But like I said, San shou is the fighting and sparring rules for guys that could be training about every form of Wu shu. Some say they train "san shou", and I guess that means they train the basic techniques allowed in the fighting and do drills on them. Nothing else. Others that train "San shou" could be from an underlying system that specializes on just sitting and meditating 24/7, does nothing but crane form, or practices every technique known to man.

 

[True2KungFu]

I study under Sifu Reed , Leung Shum lineage.

 

[peregrine]

CUNG LE

i really think the primary reason CUNG LE is so good is because of his awesome wrestling ability, and natural athleticism. years of being in the clinch and closing the distance have taught him well, allowing him to defeat china and other fighters with backgrounds not so profound in wrestling and the tie up.

 

[Silver Wolf]

WTH is going on with this thread? I basicly ignore it for a long time now but it's not going away so I'll play along because some of you guys are freaking idiots who should never be allowed to speak on this topic again.

as they mention fighters who defeated Thailand's top Muay Thai champions.

Hey buddy, you need to quit believing all the propaganda you read on those sites. They were NOT Thailand's top Thai Boxers. Mid level at best.

Traditional Kung Fu is not as good as Muay Thai. I don't care what anyone says. Argue forever about that, go ahead. If traditional Kung Fu was as good or better MMA fighters would be cross training in that and not MT. Look at nearly all the world class strikers and they all come from Muay Thai, Kyokushin, San Da, or Boxing. Not traditional Kung Fu. The secrets are out now and everyone knows what Kung Fu is and the fact is there are no secrets. The basics are what are improtant and that's what MT focuses on. The only complete system that can be link to Kung Fu arts, that is actually good, is San Da (Shou). But for that art to be created they mixed techniques from a large number of arts. In modern times now they blend Muay Thai and Western Wrestling with it. San Da is a mixed martial art. It is NOT a traditional form.

I will confess I am one of those people who believed most asian martial can be traced back to China and India.

Well no shit Sherlock. Anyone with basic knowledge about martial arts can tell you the same thing.

and kung fu evolved into Krabi Krabong which became the sport of Muay Thai and Muay Boran. That is my opinion, any evidence to the contrary would be helpful, I alwyas want to learn more.

That's all a theory. There is also a theory that Alexander the Great and his armies took Pancration to India and the locals there learn it and from Pancration comes all from of Eastern martial arts. There are a lot of facts to back that up but who cares? Does it really matter? No and it's almost impossible to prove.

 

[TenderLoving]

Yup, gotta agree with Silverwolf about this. It's only with San Da that the chinese are starting to at least have a chance going up against MT in a ring match. And they still lose most of the matches.
At least they are going in the right direction with mixing it up with other styles and learning from them. But atm they are still far behind, evolve or die out. As easy as that.

 

[sodomaestro]

The San shou vs Muay Thai are generally not fair for one of the fighters, because the rules are either San shou or Muay Thai.

In general, I think Muay Thai has a better tradition world-wide of creating tougher and more realistic fighters than systems that go to compete in San shou.

Outside China, I don't think many students that go to train some system that results in San shou competitions are that used to a good beating or even tough training. I see lots of "Kung Fu" and "Shaolin" that way too often teach improper techniques. For example, simple things like using your hip and align properly with kicks are ignored.

It's easy to slap up a sign that says "Sam's Shaolin" on the wall and go teach. Moreover, the improper techniques taught are coupled with, say, low-kicks that don't even begin to be hard. This creates an unrealistic notion of what fighting and even self-defense is about. It IS a fighting system and no boxercise. It IS boxercise if you ignore proper technique and toughness. Sadly, I've been ladies in boxercise that have far better techniques than many "Shaolin"-students.

Being a fighting system, a student that's assaulted in the street should know how and when to throw a lowkick at the knee of the assailant and do damage. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people that couldn't even throw to hit or bruise the opponent. The "when"-part includes knowing whether it's even appropriate to throw a kick. What happens when it goes to the ground?

Somebody that competes needs a sharper and tactical mind, plus timing and precision. Unfortunately, a lot of self-professed Shaolin-instructors haven't spent even 3 minutes of full-contact on the mat and can't relay the experience. Anyone interested in a complete fighting system will ask themselves "what happens when/if I'm taken to the ground?" and similar questions.

The word "Shaolin" is a kiss and a curse. Everyone has a different association to it. My association is that I prefer not to use the word. There are so many shit-schools that say "Shaolin". Do they teach you to be a humble human being? No. What about culture? No. Umm, spirituality in any way, shape, or form? No. Maybe discipline? Rarely. They teach kickboxing and some takedowns then call it San shou. As mentioned, the techniques taught aren't always that great. People often have a fascination with martial arts. That's what gets many to start training. People want to make money. That's what gets them to claim to know their stuff.

I do think Muay Thai has a better tradition. It's straight up about what it teaches you. And it makes you tough. In the western world, tougher then San Shou fighters if I may make a generalization. The Chinese San Shou fighters that I've seen internationally aren't necessarily as tough and well-conditioned. You need a type of fighting culture to cultivate your own skills. Either this comes from a very good club that has this atmosphere or a country/region where it's big. Still, you need int'l fights to grow. This goes as well for the Chinese.

I think "San shou" should be the application of complete systems, like not just show the students a few simple takedowns but also teach Shuai Chiao. Guys and girls that go beyond the fascination of martial arts will want to learn this. The rest is happy. Some like to say "I train Shaolin" or impress girls by breaking a brick or whatever. People are far too comfortable with paying for something and claim they know it. Shaolin you often pay for. Muay Thai you often sweat for. There are shitty clubs in both, but it takes a lot more search to find a good club from which you maybe eventually can go compete in San shou, but more importantly learn basic techniques that are proper and complete a fighting system (standup, ground, backsweeps to wheelkicks, grappling and throwing).

Anyway, long post, but I had some time on my hands.

 

[True2KungFu]

Good post and id agree wholeheartedly. Many an instructor of traditional kung fu or karate is more concerned with Not Gettin Hit, rather then Takin A Hit And Dishing A Better One Out .

 

[H-TARGET]

Silverwofl - I know that alot of what I've said is theory, if you paid attention you would have noticed. I that stuff about martial arts from China and India because not everyone agrees, I was just clearing up that I was one of the people who did believe it. Most people have heard it, not everyone believes it. You obviously love Muay Thai, and you would do alot better in promoting your style if you made an intelligent argument now and then, instead of just saying everything else sucks.