Krav Maga and grappling techniques...

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by 3 dimensional, Nov 3, 2010.

  1. 3 dimensional

    3 dimensional Banned Banned

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    Pardon my ignorance, as I have never trained Krav Maga. From what I understand, Krav Maga consists of ground/grappling techniques; However, I cannot find any cut and dry examples. For instance, when:

    Mounted
    In persons
     
  2. jazza

    jazza Brown Belt

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    most of there ways to counter subs is to try pull out your eyes and low blows and all the durty stuff
     
  3. pocky jocky

    pocky jocky Orange Belt

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    krav maga = eye gouge + nut grab

    nothing more, nothing less. they dont even teach you how to throw a proper punch. hardly what I would call a 'fighting system'

    :icon_neut
     
  4. strike63

    strike63 Green Belt

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    I would for call it a fighting system but it isn't competition based it's for self defense
     
  5. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Isnt Krav sort of like a JKD concepts but more self defense oriented?

    I think they pretty much absorb techniques from other systems but also try to train reality based in order to train the "flight or fight" response.

    I have seen clips where they have like 4 or 5 people surround you and you have to fight your way out of the circle, gun disarms etc...

    I may be wrong but I do not think it is a set of core techniques as much as it is a style that just uses techniques that may be effective in a deadly situation.

    For the OP if you are training strictly self defense the reality is that the best grappling art for that is one that keeps you on the feet as much as possible but gives you a fighting chance IF you go to the ground. I think Judo would be a great system for that.

    SD is different from a tournament or even a bar fight in most cases. SD is usually life and death and the best option is to get the hell outta there! Having tools to make that happen is pretty important if that is your focus. Me taking down a mugger and pinning him is foolish, just like me taking him down and choking him is foolish. The ideal would be to throw him down as I am getting the F outta wherever it is that I am.


    YouTube - Human Weapon History of Krav Maga


    OBVIOUSLY THIS IS VERY THEATRICAL.... But you get the idea, alot of different influences..aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, karate, boxing, wrestling....its to fight if you have to in order to survive...not hang out for 6-60 minutes and wait for an opening like other sport oriented styles....

    YouTube - The Best Krav Maga practitioner in the World
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  6. Hellboy31

    Hellboy31 Brown Belt

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    Pretty ignorant statement. Krav Maga is probably the single most effective martial art for self defense in realistic combat situations.. Disarming people, defending yourself against multiple attackers, ending the fight with a quick crippling blow are the principles of Krav Maga...

    The only martial art I practice is BJJ.. At this point I have no interest in watering down my training with anything else. However, most fights don't take place on a soft surface with an unarmed opponent. if my main motivation was to learn self defense, Krav Maga is the easy choice.
     
  7. pachanga

    pachanga White Belt

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    "From what I understand, Krav Maga consists of ground/grappling techniques"

    I did KM for six months or so about five or six years ago. (I do BJJ now, badly). Obviously, my experience with it is fairly partial, so don't take this as a 100% accurate reflection of what all KM is like right now.

    If you are saying that KM is a pure ground art, that is incorrect. It teaches stuff for all sorts of positions and adopted from all sorts of different arts (both sport and SD-oriented). Indeed one of my problems with it was that there were far too many techniques taught from lesson to lesson and apparently little overall structure ("Here's a defence from a bear-hug, here's a Greco-Roman throw, here's how to disarm a man holding an M-16" (really) etc etc), making it seemingly impossible to keep up.

    We did do a fair bit of ground-related training, such as mount escapes and the like. We even did a bit of what in BJJ would be called specific sparring. The mount escape I remember was to elbow someone in their pubic bone to bring their head down, grab their head and twist it as you sort of bridged in order to roll them. Obviously against a BJJer this would get you arm-barred; I don't know if it would work against someone who was not experienced on the ground. I also vaguely remember an escape against someone who had your back and had hooks in that I think revolved more or less entirely around digging your elbows into their thighs. To put it mildly, this isn't a valid escape against anyone who remotely knows what they're doing (probably anyone who knows enough to put their hooks in when they take your back) and you'll be choked out in seconds.

    If you are looking to train mainly in ground fighting, I would stay away from KM. The ground is only one of its many focuses. Furthermore BJJ has developed a well-rounded ground-fighting system through years of competition and experimentation, whereas my impression of KM is that it's just throwing in random ground techniques based more on theory than practice. There are self-defence oriented BJJ schools as well as sport ones. Plus if you get good at BJJ, you'll be able to throw in all the eye-gouging you want when you start dominating people on the ground, if that's what you still feel like doing.

    (To be fair to KM, we practiced far more sprawls and takedowns in the class than we do in my current BJJ school. Indeed the first time I watched a class, they were practicing sprawls. They didn't really teach us how to shoot properly (or even at all) though, so it was perhaps not that realistic.)
     
  8. TJS

    TJS Brown Belt

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    Since Krav teaches the basic punches from wester boxing it's intresting that you dont think they are "proper". What stlye teaches more "proper" punches than western boxing?
     
  9. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Excellent post and it reveals the eclectic style of Krav Maga. It is certainly not designed to beat a specialist at his own game. It is used to survive a potentially deadly situation. Shooting, sprawling, guard and mount are not always what a fight in a battle zone or in an alley looks like.

    Sometimes winning a battle means getting away from the mugger and his 2 buddies, sometimes it means kneeing someone in the balls when he has you up against a wall, sometimes it means reversing him if he tackled you so you can run away. I think if you seek a sport system this would not be it. But lets be real for a second, I cannot think of too many more dangerous places in the world to live than Israel and honestly with all the information out there they could have changed it but apparently have not. That has to lend some credibility doesnt it?
     
  10. pachanga

    pachanga White Belt

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    From my experience (and again I should stress that it was limited), the truth lies somewhere between your respective points.

    The punches we were taught to use were those from western boxing. However, we were not taught them in anything like the detail you would get in a boxing or kick boxing class; there was no real emphasis in learning how to do them, just "this is a jab, this is a cross, this is a hook). We were taught the basic form of each punch but not the details that make them so powerful such as proper foot rotation with them and so on. To what extent that constitutes learning "proper" punches is hard to say. Of course, this may differ from school to school, or perhaps they put more emphasis on punching at higher levels (I didn't get very far in the system, though one would think throwing a punch would be a basic thing to learn), I don't know.
     
  11. mrpopenfresh

    mrpopenfresh Red Belt

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    It's about neutralising the other guy before he neutralises you. Not big on technique, big on maiming.
     
  12. All In The Game

    All In The Game Green Belt

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    i dunno man prolly the gym or something
    I hear it's mostly about hitting the guy with your purse and kicking him in the nuts.
     
  13. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    I've been taking Krav for about 3 weeks now as a trial to see if it is for me. Last night we worked on grappling. We covered, standing choke defense (hands on throat) Professional choke defense (Rear naked) Head lock defense from front, rear and side. I worked with a guy a lot stronger than me who didn't let me do anything to him. I either did it or he maintained his position. The defenses were simple and effective and actually were more instinctive and easier to do when the agression increased from the attacker. ie he really went to choke me and came at me.

    In the 2nd class we covered defense from being mounted. Initially we practiced being on our back and trying to prevent him from getting a mount. No mats so I have some scrapes on my back, but loved it. We then practiced once he had the mount and came straight in for a choke. The attacker was to choke with arms bent, straightened, full weight into it, slightly leaning forward and in close with head to either side of yours. We had to learn to quickly identify what position he was in and where his weight was. We were taught about leverage, body positioning and vital points left open by the attacker in these positions. The point was to get the choke off, get him off while attacking a vital point. Once off the counter was to continue brutally and immediately. Again my partner was much bigger and stronger than I was and I have zero ground experience. To my surprise even with him resisting and really applying the choke most of the movement came naturally once I stopped trying to think of the fanciest way to defend. My natural reactions with some tweaks on technique and knowledge of leverage got him off of me without me feeling like I was straining myself. I don't like the idea of going to the ground in a street/self defense situation knowing cowards travel in packs but judging from this beginner level introduction to Krav Ground tactics and my experience getting jumped on the street I really think that what was taught and what they build upon can be used effectively. The point clearly was not meant to make you an expert Jiu jitsu player. It was to get you out of it fast, brutally and alive.

    What I liked about the progression from one class to the next was the use of concepts and simple techniques that worked in multiple situations. We started off standing and worked our way to the ground on our backs while protecting against the same attack (chokes) from various angles and positions. From what I can tell, as you advance in Krav the defense go from defending your average no nothing thug to defending against someone more trained. I'll be doing this for another week before trying a month at a local BJJ school, so I can better compare the tactics and immediate effectiveness then.

    Like I said, besides watching MMA I know nothing about ground work so the above was a newbies opinion. What I can say is that last week I started a thread asking about a BJJ class I watched and noting that there was one position where I immediately wondered why a groin shot wasn't the immediate response since it was the closest open target. I thought there was something I was missing with that being my immediate reaction but was glad to see that exact response in the Krav class. Maybe it's too simple to be useful but it seems to work as far as I can see. Again, I'm far from an expert.

    Here is a link of a demo from the Krav school I am currently at. He shows some of their ground defense. Feel free to tell me it's crap.

    YouTube - Mastering Krav Maga DVD Preview - David Kahn
     
  14. Hamsterdam

    Hamsterdam Orange Belt

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    Doesn't look awful for KM, but not great either.
     
  15. Qtip inspector

    Qtip inspector Blue Belt

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    I got to level 3 in KM at a good school in SF. (there are good and bad schools) I look at it like this. they basically picked x amount of techs from boxing , MT, and BJJ. like the old saying, jack of all, king of none. if you have no martial art exp., krav is great to get a handle on striking and a little ground. most offer BJJ/judo as well. I had a Carlson purple and Carlie brown teaching. its not gonna make you a badass, but I think its fine for the average. stay with BJJ if you want to grapple

    and the poster that said they dont teach proper punches? one of my main instructors was a golden gloves champ and Israeli infantry badass. I trained boxing/sparred specifically with him
     
  16. 3 dimensional

    3 dimensional Banned Banned

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    Sorry for the confusion
     
  17. NovaUniaoWesty

    NovaUniaoWesty Yellow Belt

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    A: I did Krav and I wasn't impressed. Bad boxing, bjj, kali and mt.

    B: If you really have a hard on for Krav go to amazon.com you can buy : Complete Krav Maga and Black Belt Krava Maga for about $30 total. THESE BOOKS CONTAIN THEIR ENTIRE SYSTEM.

    C: In the preface of Complete Krav Maga, Darren Levine (the big cheese of Krav in the US and Canada) states very plainly that anyone wishing to become proficent in ground fighting should learn from a BJJ instructor.
     
  18. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

     
  19. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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  20. 3 dimensional

    3 dimensional Banned Banned

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    salsation1:

    I did not see the link in your post
     

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