Kosen Judo, Tampa area

I have never seen nor experienced Kosen rules Judo so it is pretty interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter.

As a point of discussion it was mentioned earlier that it would make sense that a person that would devote a larger portion of time to groundwork would develop better groundwork.

I am not suggesting at the level of an accomplished BJJ player but considering the ruleset I would hopefully expect at least a respectable level of mat work.


I am also pretty sure that on the ground they would look very different indeed.

Komuro is one of the greatest examples of a Kosen taught Judoka. His BJJ belt is more or less an honorary title. Yuki Nakai is also another Kosen trained fighter, although he is a true BJJ black belt as well. He was already a great groundfighter from Judo before he ever laid eyes on Rickson. And he has stated before that Rickson is not the best groundfighter he has ever rolled with. He says that his master was the greatest ground fighter he ever rolled with. Kanae Hirata (I believe was the one who taught him), who was one of the last true Kosen Judo specialist. Pre WW2.


Ofcourse that could be true, or just a show of respect, who knows. Anyway, there are many fighters who have spent time training with the Kosen Judo guys. Hayato "Mach" Sakurai being one of the greatest examples and certainly one of the best fighters in MMA history. I think Akira kikuchi as well. And we all know that bost of these guys are exellent MMA grapplers and could beat most any BJJ guy in their weight class. Sakurai ofcourse when he's actually in shape. Shinya Aoki was a great University Judoka. He specialized in groundfighting, but I'm not sure if he's actually Kosen taught. He was an armbar machine. He destroyed many Jiu-Jitsu guys before he started actually training JJ with Nakai.

Kosen can be looked at, kinda in the same way as College wrestling and Freestlye wrestling. Both are just wrestling. But ofcourse the amount of ground time in college wrestling seperates them. Although Olympic Judo and Kosen are much closer related as they are identified as the same art. Kosen Judoka were allowed to pull guard, and have as much time on the ground as was needed. But the same rules reguarding what submissions were allowed was the same in both. They spend 80 to 90 percent of their time on the ground. So a great Kosen trained fighter is certainly gonna be able to hold his own on the ground. The problem that hurts it the most from putting out grapplers that compete on the highest levels of grappling, is the talent pool. There's only a few places in the world that actually practices Kosen rules Judo. And most of them (if not all) are in Japan.
 
My agreement mainly has to do with Kosen being in the US since it was not used outside of Japan. There are people that I know who actually fought under Kosen rules while they were at school in Japan.
 
I've been to El Mambi Judo in Tampa. A BJJ purple belt from my gym is a brown belt in judo from there too and teaches our judo classes.

Mambi's head instructor, Del Diaz, is extremely talented, very knowledgeable and passionate. He was very welcoming when I went to one of his clinics. He's been bringing his guys to our local BJJ tournaments and has written letters to other Florida sensei to encourage them to bring teams to BJJ competitions.
 
Komuro is one of the greatest examples of a Kosen taught Judoka.
Komuro is not Kosen player. Mach is not. Kikuchi is not. They were/are just very good judo players with good newaza. Kosen is practised in only few top( in academic sense) universities anymore. The people there study hard and don't train too much. The level is therefore low.

Best newaza players are current or former top competitors. Kashiwazaki, Nakamura....
 
Komuro is not Kosen player. Mach is not. Kikuchi is not. They were/are just very good judo players with good newaza. Kosen is practised in only few top( in academic sense) universities anymore. The people there study hard and don't train too much. The level is therefore low.


Best newaza players are current or former top competitors. Kashiwazaki, Nakamura....


You may be right about Komuro. But I know for a fact that Mach has trained with the Kosen school and I'm pretty sure Kikuchi has as well. And I have already said that the talent pool is their biggest problem.

And ofcourse I agree with you about the best Newaza players. But I believe that has more to do with the number of people practicing Olympic Judo then anything realy.
 
I've been to El Mambi Judo in Tampa. A BJJ purple belt from my gym is a brown belt in judo from there too and teaches our judo classes.

Mambi's head instructor, Del Diaz, is extremely talented, very knowledgeable and passionate. He was very welcoming when I went to one of his clinics. He's been bringing his guys to our local BJJ tournaments and has written letters to other Florida sensei to encourage them to bring teams to BJJ competitions.

Aesop how goes it bro?

I guess the answer is obvious considering a judoka from that school is working his ground game at yours, but what does he/you think of the ground fighting being taught there?
Quality?
Basic?

I am more or less ocnsidering it for my son. Last year he started up Judo before summer break but while on break he was in a car wreck and ejected from the car. Anyway his wrists were screwed up and only now do I feel comfortable that he is ready to take up another MA again.

He really liked the Judo but he has told me he wants to learn MORE groundwork while still getting some valuable training.

He is 12 (13 in JUly) and he also mentioned he might want to wreslte in HS so I felt a Kosen style Judo class might help him a bit there too.. Kinda of that base that connects wrestling to BJJ.

Anyway i said all that to say this: If the Kosen part of class "sucked" per se' I would not want to waste the time or money.

Thanks in advance.

BTW I prolly will be moving to Palm harbor in July or so, where do you train again?
 
sorry to hear about your kid knoxpk

I remeber the old thread when you first got him into judo

how long did he get to do judo before the accident?
 
the school i train at is a judo school, but we do way more ground work that throws. We compete more often in BJJ/Submission wrestling tournys than we do judo tournys. I have won 1st place in every grappling tourny I've entered, and only 3rd place in the one judo comp I've done. So yes, you can become a good grappler outside of BJJ, you just have to spend enough time on the mat.
 
sorry to hear about your kid knoxpk

I remeber the old thread when you first got him into judo

how long did he get to do judo before the accident?
 
sorry to hear about your kid knoxpk

I remeber the old thread when you first got him into judo

how long did he get to do judo before the accident?

Yep, he was in it for about 2.5 months and loved it!

He then went ot visit his mom in VA and while she was working her step brother and a friend took him for a drive, they missed a curve hit a tree and he woke up on the trunk of the car.

Needless to say I amm very grateful he woke up at all.

Anyway, he had this constant clicking in both wrists for several months afterwards and only as of Jan or so has it gotten better. However we will be moving THIS summer (plus he goes back to VA to visit his mom) so I wanted to start looking at options now so I can gameplan for budget and distance/time.

Thanks for asking tho'!
 
I live in tampa and used to train with this coach.. the low down is that he is AMAZING at judo. He has recently become more focused on the ground game aspects of it and has been in the sport of judo for a very long time. He was a step away from making the Cuban Judo team but lost to a teamate in the final qualifying match to go. He has been training judo since he was 7.. or some where abouts that age.

The guy is a physical specimen even at 50+ Absolute tank.. i think he is still benching over 400lbs.

He has recently become more interested in the ground game. One of our purple belts started training judo there and invited him to a BJJ tournament. When he came he loved it.. His guys were not used to the rules changes.. be he loved how dedicated we were to the ground.. and vice versa.. we loved how clean his people were taking everyone down.

Since then i think he has been working on a lot more ground specific stuff to get his guys more well versed. He certainly has the experience in the sport to teach tons of stuff on the ground for judo..
 
If you want to keep your kid in judo Dels club is great, and he has a good amount of talented blackbelts to help him..

Like i said before.. he has been in the sport forever.. and is a great coach. He builds strong competitors and have the physical conditioning side of things covered as well.

Del really loves what he does, and has a passion for teaching.. Very welcoming guy and i would recommend him to anyone who came to tampa for Judo.
 
Kanae hirata school is (was since he is dead) Newaza Kenkyukai (Newaza Research Group) is a judo dojo in Tokyo that only instructs and practices newaza under kosen rules, many K-1 and Pride fighters went regularly to train there (Mach was one of them).

They assume you're getting tachiwaza instruction somewhere else, but there are students who don't.

Their English homepage pretty much sums it up
newaza

YouTube - Budo Masters: Kosen Judo Hirata


Their book 'Kosen Judo no Shinzui' (The Essence of Kosen Judo)

柔道サイト eJudo: 高専柔道の真髄
 
If you want to keep your kid in judo Dels club is great, and he has a good amount of talented blackbelts to help him..

Like i said before.. he has been in the sport forever.. and is a great coach. He builds strong competitors and have the physical conditioning side of things covered as well.

Del really loves what he does, and has a passion for teaching.. Very welcoming guy and i would recommend him to anyone who came to tampa for Judo.

Thanks for the evaluation Gsoares, much appreciated!
 
Kanae hirata school is (was since he is dead) Newaza Kenkyukai (Newaza Research Group) is a judo dojo in Tokyo that only instructs and practices newaza under kosen rules, many K-1 and Pride fighters went regularly to train there (Mach was one of them).

They assume you're getting tachiwaza instruction somewhere else, but there are students who don't.

Their English homepage pretty much sums it up
newaza

YouTube - Budo Masters: Kosen Judo Hirata


Their book 'Kosen Judo no Shinzui' (The Essence of Kosen Judo)

柔道サイト eJudo: 高専柔道の真髄

To practice there you will need to make friends with a person who works out there so they can give you a proper introduction with the people in the school.(Same for many of the university's and other places like police dojo's.)
 
knoxpk,

Sorry your kid was injured. Glad to hear he's doing well enough to be looking into wrestling and judo.

I train at the Gracie Barra in Clearwater (www.tampabjj.com).

Just to be clear, the guy was a purple belt first then went to judo to work on his throws. Now he's bringing it back to our gym.

Gsoares got it all right. Del is the man to go to for judo. His groundwork is good. Any criticisms are the usual ones you'd find between judo and BJJ (simplistic guard and guard passing, ruleset, etc.) but that's to be expected. But like we've said, he's very open to cross-training.

Mambi would be great for your kid. Del is a superb teacher, very passionate about competition and the Olympics, and his conditioning is top notch.
 
knoxpk,

Sorry your kid was injured. Glad to hear he's doing well enough to be looking into wrestling and judo.

I train at the Gracie Barra in Clearwater (www.tampabjj.com).

Just to be clear, the guy was a purple belt first then went to judo to work on his throws. Now he's bringing it back to our gym.

Gsoares got it all right. Del is the man to go to for judo. His groundwork is good. Any criticisms are the usual ones you'd find between judo and BJJ (simplistic guard and guard passing, ruleset, etc.) but that's to be expected. But like we've said, he's very open to cross-training.

Mambi would be great for your kid. Del is a superb teacher, very passionate about competition and the Olympics, and his conditioning is top notch.

Very nice, thanks for the info.

Both you and Gsoares alluded to the fact that he has students entering BJJ tourneys.

How are they doing overall in your opinion?

I get that they are probably not winning these events but do they place any players or have good showings out there?


Also I notice that the kids class at your academy goes to 13yrs old. What is the typical "size" for these kids?

Even though he is just turning 13 in July he stands 5' 8" ish or more and weighs around 145lb-150lbs.

Wondering if he would "fit in" in the kids classes if we decided to do that instead.

Thanks again.
 
Kanae hirata school is (was since he is dead) Newaza Kenkyukai (Newaza Research Group) is a judo dojo in Tokyo that only instructs and practices newaza under kosen rules, many K-1 and Pride fighters went regularly to train there (Mach was one of them).

They assume you're getting tachiwaza instruction somewhere else, but there are students who don't.

Their English homepage pretty much sums it up
newaza

YouTube - Budo Masters: Kosen Judo Hirata


Their book 'Kosen Judo no Shinzui' (The Essence of Kosen Judo)

柔道サイト eJudo: 高専柔道の真髄

Neat stuff, thanks.
 
Very nice, thanks for the info.

Both you and Gsoares alluded to the fact that he has students entering BJJ tourneys.

How are they doing overall in your opinion?

I get that they are probably not winning these events but do they place any players or have good showings out there?


Also I notice that the kids class at your academy goes to 13yrs old. What is the typical "size" for these kids?

Even though he is just turning 13 in July he stands 5' 8" ish or more and weighs around 145lb-150lbs.

Wondering if he would "fit in" in the kids classes if we decided to do that instead.

Thanks again.

At our bjj school we have a couple other younger kids that are large - if he is too big, he might get asked to join the adult class as we have some 13-16 year olds in the adult class because they are larger, or simply because they want to train.

I havent been to enough tournaments to say how well his guys are doing.

Dels guys do awsome in Judo tournaments but the rules are what kills him in BJJ - His guys would be white belts in bjj tournaments, and i havent seen any of his blackbelts enter bjj tournaments. I think Del gets more excited about the ground game then they do..
Pride gets in the way with most people when you talk about crossing voer. No hardcore judo veteran wants to sacrfice his pride to go to white belt and possibly lose in a bjj tournament, and vise versa for bjj.
 
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