Kosen Judo, Tampa area

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by knoxpk, May 13, 2008.

  1. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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  2. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Interesting...

    Ordinarily I would be skeptical of anyone claiming to teach Kosen that didn't study at Kyoto University. This dojo has a Cuban lineage. Cuba has great Judo in general and Count Maeda taught there for years and there are those the Cuban Judo community that claim he did more teaching there than in Brazil.

    This Coach claims that Kosen is the style which Maeda taught, and, as Frodo reminded me a while back, that is not technically correct as Maeda left Japan (1904) before the Kosen Championships started (1914). He was certainly teaching a pre-1925 rule change version of Judo that was much more focused on newaza however.

    The Cubans have been very Olympics oriented and I would think their newaza suffered over time the way that Olympic Judo did world wide due to the post 1925 rules.

    I suspect this class is matwork focused Cubano Judo with no real lineage connection to Kyoto or any of the other Kosen schools. I would definitely check it out if I was in the area just to see what they are up to though. Coach Diaz looks like an accomplished guy.
     
  3. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    The team seems to do quite well in Judo comps locally. Also there are a NUMBER of great MMA/BJJ schools in the area as well. I would hope that if they were sub par in ground work they would reconsider.

    Still even if they were half decent (BJJ purple level or better) it would be an interesting option for a wrestler type or Judoka wanting a more physical and explosive brand of ne waza.

    I KNOW this is a stereotype, so please no flames but I would "assume" that even though Kosen rules Judo would allow for more matowrk they still would want the pace to be quite brisk and of course pins still do finish the fight.
     
  4. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    I run into a lot of Kosen guys in my area.

    I have never been impressed with them at all. Their throws aren't near as good as a Judokas and their ground work isn't near as good as a high level BJJ blue.

    They are pretty much skilled at hustling and stalling. It is so distinctive that the momement I roll with a new guy I can immediately tell if they've trained it. These are Kosen guys in Japan though. Never met anyone who learned Kosen outside of this country.
     
  5. Ryo

    Ryo Black Belt

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    Not exactly. Atleast not according to history. Matches in Kosen Judo rules, sometimes went for long periods of time.
     
  6. Ryo

    Ryo Black Belt

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    You don't learn "Kosen Judo". It's not a style. It's only a ruleset that favours groundwork. It's all Judo. And I have a hard time believing that guys who spend almost all of their time on groundwork could not produce a grappler more skilled then a BJJ blue...
     
  7. pattheflip

    pattheflip Yellow Belt

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    Be that as it may, I've run into one or two guys who refer to themselves as "Kosen Judokas" (also in Japan). One of them trained at our gym for a few months. Very strong, very good grip strength, but not particularly fluid. I won't generalize based on just him, but I don't know why you'd refer to it as "just a ruleset". After all, BJJ is just Judo with a different ruleset, and it produces very different results.
     
  8. Ryo

    Ryo Black Belt

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    I refer to Kodokan and Kosen Judo as the same thing, because they are. They are not a different style. Alot of the same people doing Kosen were the same people doing Kodokan. Like Kimura for example. Ofcourse Kosen had it's masters's so to speak. It's a ruleset that favours groundwork about 80 percent.

    Yes you could look at BJJ as a style of Judo, but then you'd be overlooking two very important things. No pins in BJJ, and no Ippon by throw. That changes the game very much. There is the option of both in Kosen and Kodokan Judo rules. And ofcourse also, there's the limited ground time in Olympic Judo, which is obvious. There's also leglocks in BJJ that are not allowed in any rules of Judo, and have not been for over 80 years.. Kosen included.

    Anytime you have grapplers focusing about 80 or 90 percent of their time on groundfighting.. your gonna see good groundfighters. Period.
     
  9. Ozfight

    Ozfight White Belt

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    Exactly, It's Judo but a different rule set. You aren't a Kosen Judoka you are just a Judoka that specializes in Newaza.

    The last Kosen Judoka if any are still alive would be very old(The ones that actually trained in the Japan university's that had the Kosen rules)
     
  10. pattheflip

    pattheflip Yellow Belt

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    OK, i'll tell them that when i see them.
     
  11. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    As has been said several times, Kosen does not exist outside of Japan, and even there it's extremely rare. IMO, anyone advertising that they are "Kosen Judo" and simply trying to jump on the bandwagon in an attempt to drag in new members.
     
  12. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    Next time a Japanese guy tells me he does Kosen Judo I will say "you're wrong! I looked it up on the interweb."

    I've met at least half a dozen Kosen guys in Japan. None of them older than 40. They exist, and their grappling is mediocre from a competitive standpoint.
     
  13. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    I have never seen nor experienced Kosen rules Judo so it is pretty interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter.

    As a point of discussion it was mentioned earlier that it would make sense that a person that would devote a larger portion of time to groundwork would develop better groundwork.

    I am not suggesting at the level of an accomplished BJJ player but considering the ruleset I would hopefully expect at least a respectable level of mat work.


    I am also pretty sure that on the ground they would look very different indeed.
     
  14. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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  15. Cirno

    Cirno Orange Belt

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    Komuro has zero BJJ training. He's an instructor at the Kodokan and earned an honorary black belt in BJJ by kicking peoples asses in comps.
     
  16. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    That is what I read on the old thread but I was wondering if more info was found.

    But it counters the point that many are making here stating that Judo guys training heavily with Kosen rules are simply marginal grapplers.

    Of course not everyone is Komuro but he is an example of what a good Judo ground fighter can look like, meanwhile still having some pretty sick takedown skills.

    I am sure there are more, I am just thinking we might try to be a little more open minded and stop speaking in abolutes unless we know something to be absolutely true.
     
  17. Mohawk79

    Mohawk79 Orange Belt

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    People do need to be more open minded. There is a mindset I encounter a lot in the grappling community that BJJ players will always outshine Judo players on the ground. BJJ is a great, but it has been shown that there are Judo players that can still hang with and even beat a lot of BJJ players. Karo Parisyan, Dave Camarillo, Gene Lebell, Gokor, and many others all came from a Judo background and are fantastic on the ground, and I doubt anyone with a brain would question that. People just need to educate themselves before making stupid assumptions.
     
  18. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Not exactly.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    KOSEN is an acronym for KOutou SENmon gakkou, which means high schools, prep schools and professional colleges.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Judo was introduced into the Japanese HS and University system in 1914 with the Kosen Championships at Kyoto University. The schools thought it would be safer for students to do more matwork and less throwing and developed a curriculum and rules system for comps that were newaza focused and allowed arm drags and other techniques. In 1925 the Kodokan rules were changed to favor tachi waza but the Kosen schools continued to have comps with their own rules until WWII.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    At this time it was widely believed that the Kosen schools had developed techniques that weren't being used by the traditional Kodokan dojos. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    During the war most university Judo clubs, including Kyoto and the other Kosen schools, were shut down due to their members being conscripted for service. After the war all Budo was prohibited until about 1949 when the Judo federations were reorganized and school competitions restarted in 1950. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Some Judoka believe that either some technique was lost during the war due to death of many teachers and the shutting down of the schools, and/or that post WWII Judo was "watered down" to emphasize the non-violent, non-combative, sporting side of the art so that the Americans wouldn't shut it down. The Japanese, who had invaded and colonialized several countries, were in the habit of prohibiting their vassal states from practicing indigenous martial arts so they were very concerned about this.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The Kosen schools still exist and still have Judo comps under Kosen rules. There are either 5-7 schools involved, I forget. There was a guy posting on the Judo sticky that was enrolled at one of the Kosen schools and studying Judo. I was hoping for more regular updates from him...

    History
     
  19. mr. tadashi

    mr. tadashi White Belt

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    There is a man from that era who is still alive and teaches at the Kodokan.(He is some were in his 80's)

    I would agree with that since my grandfather has been doing Judo for over 70 years and well if you were to ask him about Kosen rules he would just scratch his head. There is another school in my area where the instructor claims to be taught Kosen Judo but, knowing the club he was originally from no one claimed to teach Kosen judo. at that club.
     
  20. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    I guess someone needs to tell Kyoto University, where Kosen basically began, and where they claim to continue the study and teaching of Kosen Judo, that they have somehow become delusional.

     

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