Kodokan 1964 - Boris Mishenko vs Isao Okano

sambosteve

sambosteve

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Great thread on the UG judo/sambo forum. Here are the highlights...

This video is quite historical and joins neil adams statements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QtK-SA7l6w

Everyone saw the similarities between sambo and judo, but no-one was prepared for the effect that the Soviets were going to have on the evolution of judo over the next twenty-five years. To say that they were unorthodox is an understatement, and it was particularly their numerous variations on armlocks which took everyone by surprise. Up until this time a flying juji-gatame had never been seen in competition, but it was apparent that they were very well-rehearsed moves from a very highly-trained team.

.....However, it was only recently, during the 1960s, that the Russians revolutionised modern-day judo with their unorthodox techniques derived from sambo wrestling, thus opening up a whole new range of ideas for modern judoka.

Neil Adams, Judo Masterclass Techniques/ Armlocks
 
Sadly the Judo community in Japan was soo focused on fullfilling their Olympic dream they forgot about real grappling, matches like this, and guys like the Gracies made them wake up and go back to their roots (well a few of them)
 
It seems to me more of the world seems to fight more 'russian' judo style than japanese.
 
The Russian improvement on grappling never ceases to amaze me. It's fortunate for the Gracies they didn't pick Russia as the location to start the marketing machine for their style. They might have been shut down quickly. I would love to train in Sambo/Combat Sambo. Thanks for the clip.
 
The Russians' influence in the grip game alone, is proof of their impact on jacket grappling. I agree that the majority of the Europe is using something similar to the Russian formula for Judo.
 
Sixth said:
The Russians' influence in the grip game alone, is proof of their impact on jacket grappling. I agree that the majority of the Europe is using something similar to the Russian formula for Judo.
Click to expand...

Even the 'american' style looks more like russian than japanese. The japanese are somewhat distinct in their style anymore. Everybody prolly includes some wrestling except the japanese.??
 
Q mystic said:
Even the 'american' style looks more like russian than japanese. The japanese are somewhat distinct in their style anymore. Everybody prolly includes some wrestling except the japanese.??
Click to expand...

True. I think the American average is starting to look more and more like the Europeans' take on Judo. There does seem to be more of a emphasis on wrestling in general, when you look at Europe's Judoka. They also tend to hit a lot more lifts, which I think is a result of not only how they prioritize their throws, but is the result of their take on grips.
 
Q mystic said:
Even the 'american' style looks more like russian than japanese. The japanese are somewhat distinct in their style anymore. Everybody prolly includes some wrestling except the japanese.??
Click to expand...

A question for you Mystic. Do you think it's fair to say were all still doing Kodokan Judo. Even though European Judo differs slightly from Japanese Judo.
 
The same case can be made for BJJ's development, and Thai boxing under European rules.
 
Ryo said:
A question for you Mystic. Do you think it's fair to say were all still doing Kodokan Judo. Even though European Judo differs slightly from Japanese Judo.
Click to expand...

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

I know what you are doing :icon_lol: Just 'judo' is fine in my book. If you like ground, pick-ups, whatever...don't matter. I've seen judoka that I swear were wrestlers that havent wrestled...but they have a good top and a good ground game. Think 'win' score for throw, control and sub. Takedown game is hard to develop so takes 50% of time and control and subs take the rest. Standup 1st so I would say yes to Kodokan.

That is pov and I see Kano gettin beat up and making a fighting style (judo) and then getting it popular (olympic) and then like he has always done....adapted and remained cool.

Kano was a mystic.:D
 
Sixth said:
The same case can be made for BJJ's development, and Thai boxing under European rules.
Click to expand...

True to a point. In the big world, as in trained fighters, bjj lacked the 'value' of a takedown that we see vs other trained fighters. They initially trained for the 'street' imo, and just thought sub and it is a wrap...and Royce proved that.
 
Let me put it this way...(takes a drink):D

Everybody and their aunt think 'that is all for Nog, he is a dom 2nd'. Fedor has Nogs game and that is true. Some say...nemesis... which is garbage at that level of atleticism. Imo, Fedors judo cancels Nogs bjj, especially with strikes(as in helping takedown and gnp). That is all. If Nogs pride doesn't get in the way of his adaptation he could win easy.

Now, for Nog to beat Fedor, he simply (with his resources and talent) has to do 'real' judo for say 2 years.- He will still be young and other idiots think he should retire:icon_lol: . He HAS to win the takedown game and get top control. A nice uchimata from Nog, (with him, is the way imo), and he is on top. Now, from there he will, with his bjj vs Fedors judo, pass gaurd easy. Then go to work with his skills at subs. That is Fedors 'judo' weakness. Get top control and that will be a wrap for Nogs bjj.

Fedors ground game is too judo. Very strong vs bjj on top but weak when on bottom. Except vs wrestlers.:icon_chee

Damn...thought this was the 'blending judo and bjj thread'... oh well. Sorry. Sambo is good but is judo since a long time...before even I was born. 1 of it very finer points. Stay cool.
 
Q mystic said:
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

I know what you are doing :icon_lol: Just 'judo' is fine in my book. If you like ground, pick-ups, whatever...don't matter. I've seen judoka that I swear were wrestlers that havent wrestled...but they have a good top and a good ground game. Think 'win' score for throw, control and sub. Takedown game is hard to develop so takes 50% of time and control and subs take the rest. Standup 1st so I would say yes to Kodokan.

That is pov and I see Kano gettin beat up and making a fighting style (judo) and then getting it popular (olympic) and then like he has always done....adapted and remained cool.

Kano was a mystic.:D
Click to expand...

Nah man I agree with you 100%. I was discussing this with a friend and I just wanted to get your opinion.
 
Ryo said:
Nah man I agree with you 100%. I was discussing this with a friend and I just wanted to get your opinion.
Click to expand...

HeHe. If there was ever and I mean...ever... a better grappling system, it would be on top of the grappling world by 2006 and I mean by far......like judo ...is. ....Cheers.:D Enjoy. You took enuff shit talk.
 
That would be Hector Lombard, the Cuban-born Australian-based judoka fighting in the upcoming PRIDE Welterweight GP.
 
Yamato Damashii said:
That would be Hector Lombard, the Cuban-born Australian-based judoka fighting in the upcoming PRIDE Welterweight GP.
Click to expand...


And owned every Bjj bb in Austrailia from what I have heard. Grappling. You are from there did you see anything?
 
azjudoboxer said:
Sadly the Judo community in Japan was soo focused on fullfilling their Olympic dream they forgot about real grappling, matches like this, and guys like the Gracies made them wake up and go back to their roots (well a few of them)
Click to expand...

Actually Japanese learned quickly what was good in sambo. They even wen't so far that many Japanese players become excellent sambo competitors as a second sport(1). Same way sambo players learned a lot from Japanese judo players.Both sides recogised that there was many things to learn from each other. Today bot sports have pretty much adobted everything that is usefull under their current rule sets.

This match was not very representative match of Isao Okano. After this he won Olympics 64 and world championships 65. In those competitions there was no one who could defeat Okano. First time that soviet player won world championships was 1970 and this was Nevzorov who already was judo/sambo-hybrid who had good knowledge of classical judo an
of Soviet judo.


(1)
First Sambo Europeans(open) 1972

Kyll
 
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