Kneebars for blue belts

[[Tycho?]]

I think kneebars and achillies locks should be legal at all levels. Blowing out your knee is bad news, but the leg is extremely strong and its hard to suddenly find yourself in a knee bar without having time to tap. I don't think that a kneebar or a straight foot lock is any more dangerous than any number of other submissions. Kimuras can blow out your shoulder. Armbars can come on extremely fast, I've been hurt by these several times. I've also hurt my neck and back from both submissions and simply moving around.

Learn the move, know when to tap. I'm ok with heel hooks being allowed at upper levels and others being disallowed, but kneebars seem to me like too fundamental a move to leave out. Blue belts should absolutely be aware of them.

 

[Jaxx]

I would love to hear from sambo guys on this in regards to safety .eg prevelence of injuries from lower extremity locks. I personally would rather be in a knee bar than most guillotine chokes. wrecked cervical vertebre are just as hard to get over as wrecked knees.

Ok, some input from a 'Sambo guy', lol.

Kneebars, for me, are no different that arm bars. Achilles crush and calf crushes are pretty safe subs that can be hit fairly hard for the tap and very unlikely to cause any damage to training partners.

Twisting leglocks are more advanced. I love toe holds because the 'figure 4' hook up is a solid position and the sub can be applied slowly. Dont roll with heelhooks generally, only with my coach and maybe 2 other guys at the gym who i know and trust. The heelhook is not a particularly solid position as the escape is spinning out of it, which can sometimes lead to 'races' which can cause injury.

Luckily after 6 years of training, never seen any leglock injury.

 

[crossman]

I understand completely that rules are put in place for a reason. My feeling is that there are alot of dangerous submissions. Is a broken arm or shoulder really easier to recover from a tourqued knee? injuries happen in training and comps. I think if you choose to pursue bjj, you have to accept that.

 

[YeahBee]

I would love to hear from sambo guys on this in regards to safety .eg prevelence of injuries from lower extremity locks. I personally would rather be in a knee bar than most guillotine chokes. wrecked cervical vertebre are just as hard to get over as wrecked knees.

I'd support a ban on guilliotines in white belt gi divisions

caught in several but never tapped because they are never choking just going straight to the neck, refs should I dunno 2warn" people about that

 

[nefti]

Lower belt tourneys were nit creates to see who the best white/blue belt was. It was created as a motivational tool for students to train and guide the development process. You train Bjj then learn the tenants of jiu jitsu, learn how to pass guard.

 

[Gerbiljiujitsu]

I agree with just about everyone in this thread. I would be totally ok with knee bars being allowed at blue.

I think you have more time to tap to a knee bar than you do an armbar.

 

[Gregolian]

We were taught kneebars and toeholds in the class I go to and the class is probably 70% no stripe white belts. The reason being "better for me to at least show it to you and tell you the dangers of doing it if you don't do it right now so you don't decide to just randomly try it on your own and screw it up"

 

[crossman]

i statred in freestyle jj and the only thing that was "cautioned" against was heal hooks. We were also told learn how to tap. if you get hurt because you holding out on a sub its on you. There is no shame in tapping. My instructor was also know for throwing guys out of class for purpusefully cranking subs and hurting people so you felt pretty safe training there.

 

[lechien]

Kneebars are too easy to defend if you cannot follow up with toe hold.

the problem with kneebars is idiots that twist the knee bar to get the sub. It should be a straight knee bar but you always get idiots.

At the moment under IBJJF, only Brown and BB betls can do knee bars in their competitions.

How many of us have made it to Brown belt?

 

[bjjmedic]

How many will get to be brown belts when someone doesn't respect the tap or the ref is distracted?

 

[redaxe]

Kneebars are too easy to defend if you cannot follow up with toe hold.

the problem with kneebars is idiots that twist the knee bar to get the sub. It should be a straight knee bar but you always get idiots.

At the moment under IBJJF, only Brown and BB betls can do knee bars in their competitions.

How many of us have made it to Brown belt?

Yeah that's the problem. You've been training for what, seven years? And you're still not allowed to use kneebars, toeholds or calf crushers? I find that kind of crazy.

 

[lechien]

Yeah that's the problem. You've been training for what, seven years? And you're still not allowed to use kneebars, toeholds or calf crushers? I find that kind of crazy.

Been training for 8 years and just now I have been experimenting on knee bar and toe hold.

Only with/because my teamate got his brown belt, I must say.

Me, just a purple belt. :icon_sad:

I must say it really changes the game as well.

 

[redaxe]

Been training for 8 years and just now I have been experimenting on knee bar and toe hold.

Only with/because my teamate got his brown belt, I must say.

Me, just a purple belt. :icon_sad:

I must say it really changes the game as well.

Yeah, I'm concerned that after 7-8 years of training and still not being allowed to use kneebars and toeholds, it will be hard to unlearn habits and guard techniques that leave you vulnerable to such leg attacks. To only start learning how to apply and defend these techniques after 7-8 years seems a little too late.

I try to pretend like those leg submissions are always an option, and not leave myself vulnerable to them when I play guard, but sometimes I forget.

I've watched some black belt matches recently and I noticed toehold attempts are extremely common!

 

[Qtip inspector]

just different training philosophies. granted I train nogi, my instructor won't promote me to purple until I can play 50/50, kneebars etc. to a decent level. he has been rolling with me starting at 50/50, only leglocks for weeks now. I started JJ in a traditional setting, so I always focused on the upper body. getting better at it , I realize its not that confusing and actually fun when you know what to look for

 

[Higher Learning]

some of our local comps allow them at blue... in class with guys i know well ,we'll add kneebars + toe holds pretty regularly and my coach encourages us to learn them...

i think they should be allowed at blue or purple at the very least

 

[Gabicho]

I would love to hear from sambo guys on this in regards to safety .eg prevelence of injuries from lower extremity locks. I personally would rather be in a knee bar than most guillotine chokes. wrecked cervical vertebre are just as hard to get over as wrecked knees.

I get to see more injuried arms from armbars and shoulders from throws than injuries due to kneebars or achilles locks.
In fact, i've never seen someone get injuried from a kneebar or an achilles lock, not even in very large competitions. I've seen a lot of people being hurt and sore because of them but not properly injuried. Some ice and two day's rest and they're back to training.
Then again, in sport sambo, special care is taken that it's a proper straight kneebar and a proper straight achilles lock. With twisting holds, sometimes all it takes is for someone to accidentally fall down to cause injury, even if it wasn't the intent of the person applying the hold.

As for bicep/calf slicers/crushers... i've only seen one person get injuried from it, and it wasn't a break or anything. He had some minor damage to arm muscles, but it was because he tried to turn away from the move making my weight fall down on his arm during the submission. I've heard stories of people having stress fractures from these, but, well, i guess they were being stubborn about not tapping, or just had bad luck (or lack of calcium).

IMO, all of these submissions come from positions where the attacker has a lot of control over the defender's limb and movement, and can cause a lot of pain before actually causing injury.
So if there's not a huge weight/strength difference , "bad" intent from the person applying the hold, or a very bad referee, this move should not have a high injury ratio compared to other holds.

In some competittions the referees don't actively stop the matches when they see submissions locked in, and wait for the tap. I'd say that for white belts, the referees should intervene more to stop bouts when they see the integrity of one of the competitors is in danger. With referees that intervene more, i'm sure you can add more submissions that "seem" to be more dangerous. I think it's safe to say that most blues know when to tap, and maybe the referee should intervene less, or only with certain submissions.

My take is that twisting submissions (heelhooks, twisting kneebars) and spine submissions (neck cranks, hip cranks) should only be allowed at black belt competitions (they're the pro's). The rest? Some at white, some at blue, more at purple. I see no reason as to why a purple belt shouldn't be allowed to use a much larger arsenal of submissions.
Human anatomy has more than just neck and arms - why limit ourselves to attacking those?

P.S. - What happens if you scream in BJJ because of pain? In sambo it's the same as tapping, the referee will stop the bout, no clue if it also applies for BJJ.

 

[Higher Learning]

I get to see more injuried arms from armbars and shoulders from throws than injuries due to kneebars or achilles locks.
In fact, i've never seen someone get injuried from a kneebar or an achilles lock, not even in very large competitions. I've seen a lot of people being hurt and sore because of them but not properly injuried. Some ice and two day's rest and they're back to training.
Then again, in sport sambo, special care is taken that it's a proper straight kneebar and a proper straight achilles lock. With twisting holds, sometimes all it takes is for someone to accidentally fall down to cause injury, even if it wasn't the intent of the person applying the hold.

As for bicep/calf slicers/crushers... i've only seen one person get injuried from it, and it wasn't a break or anything. He had some minor damage to arm muscles, but it was because he tried to turn away from the move making my weight fall down on his arm during the submission. I've heard stories of people having stress fractures from these, but, well, i guess they were being stubborn about not tapping, or just had bad luck (or lack of calcium).

IMO, all of these submissions come from positions where the attacker has a lot of control over the defender's limb and movement, and can cause a lot of pain before actually causing injury.
So if there's not a huge weight/strength difference , "bad" intent from the person applying the hold, or a very bad referee, this move should not have a high injury ratio compared to other holds.

In some competittions the referees don't actively stop the matches when they see submissions locked in, and wait for the tap. I'd say that for white belts, the referees should intervene more to stop bouts when they see the integrity of one of the competitors is in danger. I think it's safe to say that most blues know when to tap.

P.S. - What happens if you scream in BJJ because of pain? In sambo it's the same as tapping, the referee will stop the bout, no clue if it also applies for BJJ.

same in bjj, its a tap if you make any noises

 

[mrpopenfresh]

I find it ridiculous that they would be outlawed at all. It's a competition where you want to submit the other person, locks like this are a huge part of the game.

 

[Oliver Geddes]

Personally, my belief is that there should be a difference between each belt level, at least up to Brown.

White Belt - Only basics, NO LEG LOCKS (even achilles)
Blue Belt - Achilles Lock, Crossing over footlock from the back, Wristlocks
Purple Belt - Kneebars
Brown Belt - Toeholds, Slicers etc.

I feel that each belt should bring some kind of new element to the game apart from an extra minute in competition.

Kneebars aren't THAT useful without toeholds, but they still have a place, so I think they should be introduced in isolation first, so people don't just throw their legs out there and get kneebarred. Then progress from there to combination attacks, etc.

You could make a case for allowing knee reaping at black belt, as long as no direct heel hooking motion is placed on the ankle, as well. Just to avoid high level guys getting some very minor offenses and DQ calls.

Just my opinion!

Take care,

Oli

 

[redaxe]

I like Oli's idea, although if I wrote the rules I'd be tempted to say kneebars and toeholds allowed at purple belt, and then just save the slicers for brown and black belts.

BTW, has anyone ever actually been injured just from "reaping the knee?"