Knee-Reaping & Footlock myths in BJJ

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by jamesmichael7, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. jamesmichael7

    jamesmichael7 Yellow Belt

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    Footlocks scare a lot of BJJ players, and have resulted in a number of rules in competition which only end up preventing the continuing evolution of BJJ as a martial art.


    It's often claimed that footlocks are too dangerous for beginners to learn.


    In this Disciple Dojo video series, we take a look at the controversy surrounding footlocks in the BJJ community with footlock aficionado Derek "TC" Richardson (owner and head instructor at Leadership Martial Arts in Charlotte, NC and Renzo Gracie brown belt).


    Here is part 1:

    • Should footlocks be taught to beginners?
    • Should reaping the knee be legal?
    • Is reaping the knee in gi pants really more dangerous for those trained in properly executing and defending footlocks?
    • What is the ideal position for hitting a footlock?




    Still editing the rest of the clips, but I'll post them once they're up as well.
    And here's the link to Jason Scully's petition to the IBJJF mentioned in the vid: https://www.change.org/petitions/st...al-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-federation-tournaments

    Blessings from the Dojo,


    [​IMG]


    JM
     
  2. blindgod

    blindgod Blue Belt

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    If we're open to add our own opinions:
    -Yes.
    -I'd rather it were, but the IBJJF is free to make rules as they will.
    -Never seen statistical evidence one way or the other. Everything on this I've heard has been speculation, theorizing, and anecdotal evidence.
    -Depends on the footlock. If you're using the term to refer to ankle locks, I'm willing to bet it's something like the Sambo Leg Knot that Reilly Bodycomb shows.
     
  3. IamMars

    IamMars White Belt

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    I love leg locks and leg lock discussion, so I wanted to add my own opinion,

    • Should footlocks be taught to beginners? Yes. No better time to learn. Especially learning proper leg lock DEFENSE
    • Should reaping the knee be legal? Yes. It is a very strong position.
    • Is reaping the knee in gi pants really more dangerous for those trained in properly executing and defending footlocks? No.
    • What is the ideal position for hitting a footlock? Reaping the knee with reaping foot under their far thigh (like he shows in the video) or sambo leg knot which is just a continuation of the aforementioned.

    One of the biggest dangers is someone attacking a foot lock and the defender injuring himself with an improper escape. I believe the person applying the foot lock should know enough about the attack to not explode into a heel hook. Just like they should know not to totally rip an armbar.

    Also I don't go for leg locks to newer guys just because of what I mentioned before, they can seriously hurt themselves by an improper escape.
     
  4. Knock Out Ned

    Knock Out Ned el mero mero

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    Nice video. I totally agree that footlocks are safe for beginners and with the points that you make. You talk about topics that I have touched upon in my writing in the past.

    I actually love it when people try to roll out of my ankle locks. It just ends up giving me more torque.
     
  5. Saenchai

    Saenchai Purple Belt

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    If you think about it a little, IBJJF get their statistics from other martial arts organizations... Like Judo and Sambo...
     
  6. jamesmichael7

    jamesmichael7 Yellow Belt

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    Great comments, folks! There are 2-3 more vids coming in this interview series with TC. I just haven't had a chance to edit them due to the holidays. But I hope you'll enjoy them when I do and one day footlocks and reaping won't have such a bad stigma in BJJ circles! :)
     
  7. Protectandserve

    Protectandserve Red Belt

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    I think they should be properly taught at an early stage. Entry, set up, defense should all be taught. Too many guys want to learn them and just learn the subs themselves. I think that leads to a lot of the disdain people have for beginners learning leg locks. People are not taught them properly, attempt them and fail or lose position and people then complain about how bad thy are for people to implement in their game.
     
  8. Dedication

    Dedication White Belt

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    I'm a BJJ & Sambo guy so I get the 'your Sambo is dangerous' all the time, no, no it's really not. Luckily, all my core training partners have come around and trust me to not destroy their lower extremities. Here's what I usually answer to these questions...

    Should footlocks be taught to beginners? Yes. But not until 3-4 'stripes' or equivalent experience level...example we had a guy who ALL he would go for was the straight ankle-lock, because it would be easier to 'get-to' then passing guard. (No, he didn't last very long.) Straight ankle-lock is ok to teach from the beginning no big deal, I'm more referring to the heel hook or toe holds. The white belts need a little more experience and some solid moves to go on simply so it's not *all* that they attack.

    Should reaping the knee be legal? Yes in NoGi Intermediate + Divisions, possibly Beginner Divisions also (Not NOVICE). When properly used, all reaping the knee does is allow control of the hips. It doesn't twist anything, it simply locks down the hips. When it's properly used...

    Is reaping the knee in gi pants really more dangerous for those trained in properly executing and defending footlocks? Yes/Maybe. We do Sambo in shorts, there IS a reason for that. Plus, Accidents happen and it's really just increasing the chance of an accident. If you had Gi pants on I would probably NOT attack with anything twisting for your own safety.

    What is the ideal position for hitting a footlock? I prefer position 4. A fully reaped leg with the lock-in. Walkthrough: Go for the straight ankle-lock, now take your legs (which should be facing outboard using IBJJF rules), and triangle them around your opponent's leg, crossing over on-top of his quad (NOT HIS KNEE). Now face inboard, the lock should still be towards the outside preferably. One last thing, you should be posted up on your arm that isn't attacking the leg. Now you are in a position for a number of attacks, my quickest is a straight ankle-lock from there. Place your breadcutter around the achilles, slide back to hit the grove and so it's tight in the arm-pit, now hand-high in the center of the chest, shoulder back, elbow down, you should get a tap, if you need too, lower your body on your posted arm to get the tap. No leaning back of the body necessary with this method! And it leaves you more free to transition to an alternative lock, or out of. That is why I much prefer the Sambo straight-ankle to the BJJ amalgamation, the position, and the lock are much tighter and also are easier to transition with.
     
  9. blindgod

    blindgod Blue Belt

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    I've often seen the argument that leglocks shouldn't be taught to beginners because they won't learn guard passing. And for the life of me, I don't see how that makes sense. At a certain point, a person has to be responsible for his/her own growth. If an instructor or someone else explains to someone that just going for one move will cause them to lack depth and variety of skill but they still persist in doing just that one move, that is their choice in the end. I don't think this is a valid reason for not teaching an entire set of moves.

    Side note: This obviously isn't what Dedication is saying, but I have seen it often enough that I feel it should be addressed.
     
  10. blindgod

    blindgod Blue Belt

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    3 things:
    1. What are these statistics and where are they published?
    2. Judo doesn't allow leglocks of any kind in competition, so Judo orgs are not going to have any stats on knee reaping.
    3. Sambo orgs apparently feel that knee reaping is not dangerous enough to ban it. Since Sambo is practiced wearing shorts, Sambo orgs are not going to have any stats on knee reaping while wearing gi pants.
     
  11. ozyabbas

    ozyabbas Purple Belt

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    I think people hunting for the foot rather than learning to be good guard passers is a valid argument and I have seen it happen.

    I think the BJJ community have increasingly seen the importance of leg locks. I see a lot more people going for the straight ankle locks. People are being taught a lot more about counters and counters to those counters and how to put the most amount of pressure the ankle.

    I think all leg locks should be allowed at purple belt. By that time they should have a solid grounding on how to pass the guard.

    The more people are exposed to leg locks the more they will be familiar of when to tap making them a lot more safe to train.
     
  12. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    No one argues that Sambo is the art that understands leg attacks.

    That's why I think it's absolutely rediculous that Sambo allows reaps where the IBJJF bans it all levels.

    Yet, IBJJF allows toe holds but Sambo in Japan bans it at all levels.

    The fact that Sambo bans certain leg locks proves they're not reckless savages so why does the IBJJF insist on calling reaping dangerous when Sambo is concerned with safety and they deem it fine They can't use gi pants an excuse when you shouldn't be spinning out of escapes anyway.

    It's like banning toasters because dummies get electrocuted for not bothering to read or follow the instructions.
     
  13. blindgod

    blindgod Blue Belt

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    I've seen it happen too. In fact, that person who only hunts for leg locks was me for the first few months of doing BJJ. However, I wasn't happy with my lack of progress elsewhere and when I mentioned it to one of my instructors, he advised me to give up leglocks for awhile. I did and everything else got better. There was never any need to ban leglocks because doing them to the exclusion of other things was my choice at the end of the day.

    On the other side, I didn't pick up leglocks again til recently, so that while my abilities in other areas improved, my leglocking didn't approve along with them. So here I am, eight years later, trying to play catch up.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  14. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    What about the countless practitioners who do nothing but pull guard and triangle. Or worse. Pull guard and spam 50/50 advantage points until they get to the medal podium.

    BJJ allows people to play however they want to play. If you wanna play top, get on top and win. You wanna play nothing but half guard, than get the position and win. If it doesn't work than adapt the position or try something else.

    Banning a move because it doesn't fit your image of Jiu Jitsu is the most retarded argument out there.

    If you like foot locks but not passing that's your prerogative. You either get the tap or lose. If you lose you get your foot lock better. If not, your coach needs to teach you how to enhance your game. It's not the rule makers job to ban techniques to "make you better"
     
  15. Taptap

    Taptap Blue Belt

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    Cool video dude, but I'd like to point one thing out.

    There is a physiological difference between bending the leg inwards as supposed to outwards because of how the hip joint is build and it's range of motion. That's a major difference.
     
  16. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    If people don't want beginners diving for leg locks instead of passing the guard, they can just teach the beginners to use leg locks primarily from bottom position.

    Yeah, I'm pro reaping, but I was gonna say this as well. The knee can usually take less inward torque ('reaping') than outward (e.g. 50/50). Still, both can be dangerous if exaggerated, but should also be relatively safe as long as both parties understand a position.
     
  17. Nomad Nemesis**

    Nomad Nemesis** Brown Belt

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    i am no med student, but inward vs outward turning of my knee definitely does not feel the same.

    the reaping when sweeping is bs, but leg reaping for subs could really care less.

    What leg locks can you not do because you cannot reap? (the heel hook is outright banned but you could still get it without reaping i believe)

    also, if you have the heelhook you have the achillies lock and the toehold? isn't the leg orientation a bit different than these (or is it this way in sambo legal vs ibjjf legal)

    seems like if you are that much in love with sambo leg locks, you could compete in sambo (same thing goes for TDs and wrestling/judo), but somehow ibjjf is supposed to mesh what everyone wants in everything. that is mma. do that and go nuts with your reaping. but i don't want to get punched in the face (sounds just like someone who says i don't want to get heelhooked while pajama wrestling), suck it up.
     
  18. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    That's how I feel as well. But question, then how come the (inward pressure) heel hook tends to do less damage than the reverse/inside (outward pressure) heel hook?
     
  19. Ice 9 Cobra

    Ice 9 Cobra Black Belt

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    I've only reaped the leg once in competition and the dude ended up in a wheelchair. So it is dangerous, but it's a danger that black belts and even brown should be able to handle. The main danger is am ignorance to the situation, the guy who's leg is broke turned the wrong way.

    I also think that the foot position rule is ridiculous. Just don't let the foot pass over the thigh, that should be enough
     
  20. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    Thats cute. The "you should do another sport" defense. Are you one of those "if you don't like our government den fit da fuk iout" people? Make it easy to not think about inconsistencies?

    In terms of heel hooks, the sambo rules I train under don't allow them, even than I don't see how orthodox heel hooks can be done without reaping so....no without the reap you don't have that hypothetical option. Don't know what your point was.

    BJJ is about proper positioning and you can't position yourself properly for leglocks without reaps.
     

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