Kids Sandbagging

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westbjjdad

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The Pan Kids are this Sunday and I've found several instances of kids being registered in lower belt divisions than what their rank really is. I know a lot of posters say the adult black belt division is the only division that matters but the kids divisions really mean a lot to the kids who are competing. If you guys had this info, would you report this to the IBJJF? Do you guys think they would actually do anything about it? I just think its unfair for all kids involved and unethical for the adults/coaches.
 
At that age winning is not the most important thing at all, it's about getting better.

if your kid is getting better who cares if he loses? he will have to learn to deal with losing at some point in his life

If you want to, report away.
 
I roll with everyone. I learn tricks and learn a defense well enough to tire a guy out and tap him. It doesnt make me a purple or brown belt. People have told me im sandbagging but i havent earned my belt so I'll lie and compete in a different rank. Some tourneys go by belt rank and some go by experience. Ill tell you what though guys with great wrestling especially college wrestling exp can hang with the higher levels shoot look at Weidman.

Dont report unless its really that bad then say something next time. Karma police catch people all the time my friend.
 
Honestly, the main reason I don't is because if the organizers can't be assed to check, they probably won't do anything about it if pointed out, and might even give you a hard time.

That said, they might do something about it, in which case you would be doing a service to the community.

But the real sherdog way would be to wait until after, and then out the coaches/schools of the kids that did this.
 
How about sitting next to a parent at the tournament and saying "I see your daughter is fighting as a "x" belt. Why did the get demoted?" Sort of forces them to admit they are sandbagging. Follow-up with "That's bit unethical don't you think?"
 
One thing to consider is that some schools (like mine) have belt systems that don't correspond to IBJJF belts, either because they did it that way before their kids were competing in IBJJF, or because the kids train in multiple styles and get a "general" belt covering their overall abilities. It's pretty common. Tiger Schulman's, for example, is probably the biggest chain that does this.

So in a tournament, it's not uncommon to see a kid competing at a "different belt" than the one they normally wear. The instructor may have to estimate the kid's skill level to put him or her in the appropriate division.

Not sure if this applies to your situation, but it's something to think about.
 
westbjjdad said:
The Pan Kids are this Sunday and I've found several instances of kids being registered in lower belt divisions than what their rank really is. I know a lot of posters say the adult black belt division is the only division that matters but the kids divisions really mean a lot to the kids who are competing. If you guys had this info, would you report this to the IBJJF? Do you guys think they would actually do anything about it? I just think its unfair for all kids involved and unethical for the adults/coaches.
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The competition matters to the parents who take the time, money and a lot of stress to have their kid in this tournament, many coming from out of state and from other countries, It matters to the coaches who spent countless hours with that kid to sharpen his or her skills and most importantly matters to the kid for the obvious reasons. So, yes, fairness of the competition matters and who ever says otherwise is a idiot, is not a parent, is not a coach, and yes, if you see it call it and post it so it will discourage people from doing it in the future.
 
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Yeah, my son has been helping a bunch of his teammates train for Pan Ams and there are a lot of kids that are definitely taking it very, very seriously. The main benefit will be from the training and the overall experience, but it's still pretty frustrating when you're spending all that time, energy and money to get to LA for a weekend and you are only guaranteed one match. I would talk to your kid's coach and complain through him if possible, but if he thinks its not worth complaining I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it and just try to make the best of it. Sandbagging is going to happen at every division but the top.
 
My son has his first competition at the end of march and Im not sure if he could be accused of sandbagging.
He is seven and has wrestled for the past three years and done bjj and judo for the last six months. He has done four judo competitions so far and has three golds and one silver.
His bjj grading is done on attendance so after six months he is a three stripe white belt. He has also started a one on one bjj private at a different club. He quite easily beats other kids his own age or a little older who are higher belts because of his experience.
Would it be right to say he is sandbagging?
 
Sandbagging is when someone has a rank and goes to certain competitions wearing a lower ranked belt or purposely signs up in a lower level division. If your son is a talented white belt and has never been promoted in BJJ the answer is no, your son is not sandbagging on IBJJF standards.
Some grappling tournaments such as naga don't ask for belt level but months/years of grappling art experience.
 
I think it can be really hard to figure out what belt a child should be at in the first place. Many belts are given for attendance in kid's programs so the belt really doesn't reflect skill in the way one hopes it would in an adult program. And, sometimes the kid's bjj program is more of a hybrid type program so again the belt the child wears in the class doesn't reflect straight bjj skill. Add to the mix the kids who also train Judo or wrestling and really the kids belts are just all over the place in terms of marking their skill level. Once a child competes in the first place I think it is easier to tell what belt they should be. So, should a coach or parent purposely place a child in a belt division that they are aware this child should not be in--- of course not. But there is a lot of grey area to consider.
 
Im sure it must be much worse in America where wrestling is a lot more popular.
 
seamus1979 said:
My son has his first competition at the end of march and Im not sure if he could be accused of sandbagging.
He is seven and has wrestled for the past three years and done bjj and judo for the last six months. He has done four judo competitions so far and has three golds and one silver.
His bjj grading is done on attendance so after six months he is a three stripe white belt. He has also started a one on one bjj private at a different club. He quite easily beats other kids his own age or a little older who are higher belts because of his experience.
Would it be right to say he is sandbagging?
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Yeah, I have the same kind of concerns because my 7 year old has been training judo for 3.5 years, BJJ for 1 year and is just finishing up his first season of wrestling. I have basically just been treating each of the sports independantly unless the rules specify something else (like naga won't allow wrestlers to compete below intermediate).

I haven't found judo to really give him that much of an edge in BJJ that he should have been anywhere except for beginner-- he's also big (74 lb.) for his age so ends up having to go against lots of older kids anyway, so it has kind of evened out. He's doing well but hardly dominating. He also runs into quite a few legit sandbaggers who have been competing in the beginner bracket for well over a year and even a yellow belt in the last one. His next BJJ tournament will be at intermediate but I expect him to be in for a bit of a rough go at it. In wrestling he's destroying everyone in his division with koshi guruma because (a) he's good at it and (b) wrestlers that age don't usually know anything other than doubles/singles so they have no idea what's going on when he does it. I definitely feel like a sandbagger (although I wasn't given a choice to move divisions), but if you see him try to get into referee's position or shoot a double/single you can definitely tell he's a beginner.
 
dalexan242 said:
Yeah, I have the same kind of concerns because my 7 year old has been training judo for 3.5 years, BJJ for 1 year and is just finishing up his first season of wrestling. I have basically just been treating each of the sports independantly unless the rules specify something else (like naga won't allow wrestlers to compete below intermediate).

I haven't found judo to really give him that much of an edge in BJJ that he should have been anywhere except for beginner-- he's also big (74 lb.) for his age so ends up having to go against lots of older kids anyway, so it has kind of evened out. He's doing well but hardly dominating. He also runs into quite a few legit sandbaggers who have been competing in the beginner bracket for well over a year and even a yellow belt in the last one. His next BJJ tournament will be at intermediate but I expect him to be in for a bit of a rough go at it. In wrestling he's destroying everyone in his division with koshi guruma because (a) he's good at it and (b) wrestlers that age don't usually know anything other than doubles/singles so they have no idea what's going on when he does it. I definitely feel like a sandbagger (although I wasn't given a choice to move divisions), but if you see him try to get into referee's position or shoot a double/single you can definitely tell he's a beginner.
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74lbs?? Wow
My boy is only 22kg in his GI which is roughly 45lb. He did his four judo competitions last year and he was under 20kg (44lbs) at the time. He won 3 golds in his first three competitions but in his forth competition he was told he would have to go in the under 25kg class because he was to experienced and it would be unfair and he ended up competiting against a bunch of 9 year olds and won two matches and lost one to place silver.
In all honesty my son sucks at singles and doubles (I think he is destined for Greco!) But all he does is rough house his opponents, pummel, drive with his head and either takes there back or performs a head and arm take down to scarf hold. I'm sure if he was competing in america he would do nowhere near as good because of how popular wrestling is but because its so rare here in England he does OK.

I'm not sure if you would call it sandbagging but I do see some of the older kids from his wrestling class competitinf in the same judo competitions and they are killing it. Its a lot of Georgians and Azerbaijani kids who are shit hot and are going into red belt rumble competitions against kids who are trying there first judo competition and then suplexing them into oblivion and probably putting these kids off judo competitions for life.
 
For the ibjjf kids Pan your kids are fine. The only thing that matters is the belt that his/her BJJ instructor awarded to them.
 
Yes, having experience in other arts/styles then starting BJJ is one thing but having started BJJ, then being awarded a belt and competing at a lower belt to have an advantage is another. I feel that's plain cheating to get an advantage for a medal.
 
Some schools don't follow ibjjf belts, and have to guess their kids level because of it, but with that said a lot of schools still allow their kids to sandbag.

Sandbagging is much more common with the kids, but the main reason is because many coaches move their kids up too quick for fear of them losing motivation, and know they aren't really ready to represent the belt they were promoted to yet. A lot of them are technically sandbagging because they're putting them in a lower belt category, but in reality that is actually where the kids skill level is.

It's still 100% wrong, but that is why it happens most of the time. I would never allow a kid from my gym to do this. As a coach it's dispicable. If a kid isn't ready to represent a certain belt it is your responsibility to make sure they can before you promote them.
 
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