Khabib vs Tony - Cardio & Finishing Ability

Well, he lost the round so he wasn't in control that round. Your argument started here:


If he wanted to smash Conor for five rounds (not four) taking a round off wasn't the way to do it. If he wasn't tired and could have had his way with Conor then it makes no sense to take a round off and lose that round, especially given that Conor was tired and thus vulnerable. If he was worried about getting tired or Conor catching him with something and that's why he took it off versus being outright tired then he wasn't in control. The problem with your argument is that there's absolutely no reason for him to lose a round unless he wasn't in full control. There's no reasoning to bridge the gap from A to B.

This isn't quantum physics, it's 1+1 kinda stuff


Yes, I'm sure khabib had the judges scorecards immediately psychically transferred to his brain so he could know that he was losing a close round. your argument hinges on khabib knowing he was losing a round, which obviously he can't know what the judges were scoring.
 
Assuming he's not at a big energy disadvantage by then...yeah...could happen. The cardio gap between he and Tony could be less than I think it is.

So who you betting on and why? or are you still deciding?
 
Yes, I'm sure khabib had the judges scorecards immediately psychically transferred to his brain so he could know that he was losing a close round. your argument hinges on khabib knowing he was losing a round, which obviously he can't know what the judges were scoring.
Dodging.

However you want to twist it he took his foot off the gas the same as in the Al fight and it's pretty easy to narrow the possibilities as to why.

If he could win every fight with such minimal effort then why not be lackadaisical in every round of every fight? Why bother ever trying to finish? Since apparently he doesn't feel like expending energy ('cause his fighting style is so lowkey) and just randomly takes rounds off for reasons having nothing to do with cardio. It's just 'cause, y'know, he didn't feel like moving much that round. I mean why keep dominating, relax, take a break already, have a kit kat. He earned that round
 

Yeah, stop doing it. How was khabib suppose to know he was losing that round? please do tell, considering it's your argument that hinges on that, not mine.

My argument hinges on him thinking he was winning and thinking he was in control, which is completely possible.

Your argument of "he wouldn't possibly slow down on purpose knowing full well he's losing" hinges on him knowing he was losing, which you simply can't prove.

and that's why you go back to this :

However you want to twist it he took his foot off the gas the same as in the Al fight and it's pretty easy to narrow the possibilities as to why.

If he could win every fight with such minimal effort then why not be lackadaisical in every round of every fight? Why bother ever trying to finish? Since apparently he doesn't feel like expending energy ('cause his fighting style is so lowkey) and just randomly takes rounds off for reasons having nothing to do with cardio. It's just 'cause, y'know, he didn't feel like moving much that round. I mean why keep dominating, relax, take a break already, have a kit kat. He earned that round

Yes, it's easy to narrow down the possibilities as to why when you ignore all other possibilities that don't coincide with your own opinion.

I never said he takes rounds off for reasons having nothing to do with cardio. You seem to be building a strawman and attacking it.
 
Yeah, stop doing it. How was khabib suppose to know he was losing that round? please do tell, considering it's your argument that hinges on that, not mine.

No, it doesn't. I believe he was less active that round for the only reason that makes sense: He was tired and needed a breather after pounding Conor so hard in the second. That he lost the round is an effect, not the cause. Simple oversights like this make this conversation very annoying to participate in

My argument hinges on him thinking he was winning and thinking he was in control, which is completely possible.

He could have thought that although surely he knew he wasn't in as much control as before being that he was being punched in the face instead of completely neutralizing his opponent of all offense whilst pounding his face ceaselessly. Your initial premise was that he let his foot of the gas because why not? That was how you framed it, your framing has now changed

Your argument of "he wouldn't possibly slow down on purpose knowing full well he's losing"

No where did I say nor infer that, you are going through cognitive dissonance because your attachment to an idea has been challenged and you can't let go


hinges on him knowing he was losing, which you simply can't prove.

No, I said he lost the round, which he did, nothing about my argument hinges on that. I already explained this above so I won't repeat in this section

and that's why you go back to this :



Yes, it's easy to narrow down the possibilities as to why when you ignore all other possibilities that don't coincide with your own opinion.

I never said he takes rounds off for reasons having nothing to do with cardio. You seem to be building a strawman and attacking it.
Why expend more pressure and energy than you need to if you're not in danger and you're still winning by doing less?

If you can win a round and preserve energy, then it seems smart to me.
There's no reason to win a round and "preserve energy" unless you're worried about cardio. Whether you intended it or not that it what your house was built on. You responded to my post which questioned the taking rounds off bit, if you didn't hold an at least somewhat contrary stance there would be no reason to respond.

Whether Khabib knew he won or lost the round he 100% knew it wasn't as dominate as flooring Conor and pounding his face which has the added benefit of removing any danger to himself
 
I think it's pointless to discuss this. More likely than not we wont even see this fight. I think it's pretty clear by now UFC doesnt want tony near title and has money fights in mind. Who gets stripped a week after injury? Who gets paid 125K/ 5K win at his level? His last fight was 250/250. Makes no sense. Unless you are trying to chase Tony out of UFC. Dana said zero about Tony fighting Khabib after spectacular performance and winning fight of night, again, at 229. I give it like a 1% chance of ever happening. Khabib probably fights Conor next, GSP, then is probably gone IMO.
 
I’m not sure anyone can provide a definitive, 100% answer other than khabib himself, or those who are close to him and very familiar with his own patterns of stamina/energy expenditure, conservation of energy tactics, strategy, psychological/behavioral i.e, tendencies/qualities when he’s in control verses when he’s vulnerable or losing, (ie poise/awareness) and how all that relates in this context of what happened retrospectively in comparison to previous experiences/bouts as a template.

That said, I think dude did slow down a bit in the third, followed by picking up right where he left off in the 4th... and still had enough in the tank to go ‘crouching tiger hidden dragon’ style off the ‘top rope’ of the octagon on danis and Connie’s corner.

All the while didn’t sit on the stool between rounds, and in between smashing Conor was jawing at danis and Connie and 3 times arguing with Herb.

He was paying attention to 3 different situations in different degrees. Primarily a fight in the octagon with Conor, second he repeatedly was looking over and jawing at danis... and third a few times was arguing with herb about Conor’s cheating in between talking to Conor and smashing him.

That’s a lot of stuff imo going on during a world championship bout to take on, and it Seems to me in a weird way the guy was was in a juxtaposed mode of being somewhat comfortable/composed yet heightened/focused, multitasking in a situation that would overwhelm a lot of athletes with just focusing on the bout itself.

When it ended and he lost control of himself as the rage was still there and even higher as the bout time as over and all that said motion had coalesced into well... more. Rage, anger, physiologically testosterone and dopamine elevated, the preoccupying workload wasn’t there anymore.

Seems like a lot to manage in a championship bout, that he chose to occupy and pursue, because on some level felt he could handle it.....until the finale (and he lost his shit and went Bombs over Baghdad) , cause he had some reserve gas in the tank.
 
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I don't think he ever HAD to take a break. He looked in complete control on the feet, too, especially against AI.

You don't think he looked in control of those fights on the feet too?

He lost the third round vs. Conor. Granted, he never got rocked or took any hard shots. But still, think about it. You're in the biggest fight of your career, you're a grappler, facing one of the best knockout artists in mma history. To lose to this guy would be devastating.

Frankly, I find the idea that Khabib would spend the entire round standing willingly ludicrous. Going into this fight nobody would think that was a good idea. But now just because he got away with it people are pretending it was a planned strategy. Lol gtfo.
 
One thing I wanna chime in with is this
There a difference between gassing from self imposed exhaustion ( pushing the pace, and your cardio being weak) and gassing from damage. Tony's cardio may be unlike anything we've ever seen but I refuse to believe that he wouldn't slow down if he got taken down and GNPd for an entire round. With that being said, I edge Khabib in the fight I just think he will overpower Tony
 
The featherweight Conor would have hooked Khabib before that overhand landed.

That overhand has made people overestimate Khabib's stand-up.

Khabib went four rounds with Laquinta unable to beat him stand up. Laquinta is an amateur compared to Ferguson at striking. Honestly he doesn't even do a jab right, get a grip of yourself thinking he's this amazing ground and pound he's just a lay and pray hugger who hasn't grounded and pounded anyone even as hard as Mendes

Well see if Khabib the weight bully cardio lasts as well because he can't make weight without medical issues so will need to stop making lightweight in my opinion which is why he wanted to retire
 
The featherweight Conor would have hooked Khabib before that overhand landed.

That overhand has made people overestimate Khabib's stand-up.

Khabib went four rounds with Laquinta unable to beat him stand up. Laquinta is an amateur compared to Ferguson at striking. Honestly he doesn't even do a jab right, get a grip of yourself thinking he's this amazing ground and pound he's just a lay and pray hugger who hasn't grounded and pounded anyone even as hard as Mendes

Well see if Khabib the weight bully cardio lasts as well because he can't make weight without medical issues so will need to stop making lightweight in my opinion which is why he wanted to retire

You sound like a bitter hoe
 
So who you betting on and why? or are you still deciding?

I'm almost sure I'll be on Tony. But I need to wait until they open the lines. Khabib will be favored almost guaranteed. I made a lot betting on him vs Conor but this matchup is SO different. Tony is an entirely different animal. I'm hoping Khabib is a bigger favorite than he was vs Conor.
 
One thing I wanna chime in with is this
There a difference between gassing from self imposed exhaustion ( pushing the pace, and your cardio being weak) and gassing from damage. Tony's cardio may be unlike anything we've ever seen but I refuse to believe that he wouldn't slow down if he got taken down and GNPd for an entire round. With that being said, I edge Khabib in the fight I just think he will overpower Tony

Tony was forced to work off his back for long stretches in multiple fights and never looked even remotely tired.
 
I think it's pointless to discuss this. More likely than not we wont even see this fight. I think it's pretty clear by now UFC doesnt want tony near title and has money fights in mind. Who gets stripped a week after injury? Who gets paid 125K/ 5K win at his level? His last fight was 250/250. Makes no sense. Unless you are trying to chase Tony out of UFC. Dana said zero about Tony fighting Khabib after spectacular performance and winning fight of night, again, at 229. I give it like a 1% chance of ever happening. Khabib probably fights Conor next, GSP, then is probably gone IMO.

Will be criminal, man I hope you're wrong. (Not saying you are though, sadly).
 
This fight is easy to predict, Tony thinks he can win against khabib with his rubber guard in the floor, but he is forgetting that khabib Will not give him that chance, he Will not eat those elbows like the others.
I love both of them, Tony chin is like a miracle of God, his nickname suits him him well but khabib is a freak in what he does. Tko on round 3 for khabib or UD for habib also
 
This fight is easy to predict, Tony thinks he can win against khabib with his rubber guard in the floor, but he is forgetting that khabib Will not give him that chance, he Will not eat those elbows like the others.
I love both of them, Tony chin is like a miracle of God, his nickname suits him him well but khabib is a freak in what he does. Tko on round 3 for khabib or UD for habib also

Tony will use his rubber guard sure, but of course he'll modify it with the purpose of simply making Khabib work his ass off.

It amazes me that people watched Barboza and Iaquinta survive but would predict that a far more capable grappler who's more durable AND who has FAR superior cardio would get finished. It's looking at evidence and then predicting an opposite outcome from what the evidence shows.

It's a fight. Anything can happen. But man it seems like people ignore some pretty apparent things when making predictions.
 
I don't buy that they "planned" to take rd 3 off. That sounds nice...but there is no way in a fight that big he just decided "You know, I'll just strike with a dangerous striker instead of putting him on his back again where there is zero threat to me." No chance, none. Khabib emptied his tank trying to finish at the end of rd 2, and needed a breather plain and simple.

Your other point has some validity, Khabib may have to hunt less to "find" Tony than he does other guys. The issue is that once Tony is on his back, there's a very good chance he makes Khabib work a hell of a lot harder than Conor or Al Iaquinta or Barboza did. So the energy expenditure could still be much more vs Tony than vs his previous opponents despite Khabib maybe finding the TD's easier to get.
With my Khabib point I am just repeating info I got from the trainer post fight. Whether its true or not IDK he did drop Conor so I do buy him not worrying about Conors striking.

As far as Tony ...he is a BEAST on the ground, or I should say the mat. Which is a difference, Khabib makes sure its not on the mat when taking down a guy he makes sure its against the fence where he can trap you eliminate whichever limb you have by either trapping it or grabbing hold of the wrist, while he has you pressed against the cage he raps the legs ith his and has 2 free arms/hands to strike with while the opponent in this case Tony will need to use to post up and try and escape or fall to his back and defend with that one free limb/hand.

Ferg definitely CAN submit anybody but as long as Khabib has you against the cage the chance of a submission off his back is limited and unlikely to happen.

In my opinion If Ferg pulled guard in the center of the octagon forcing Khabib to grapple in the center of the octagon he would have far better chances at doing damage off his back or submitting Khabib.
 
What does one have to do with the other??? Khabib being undefeated has nothing to do with this. Aldo hadn't lost a fight in 10 years and got smoked in 13 seconds. Weidman was undefeated coming of finishes over Silva, Belfort and UD over Machida and got handled by Luke....being undefeated doesnt mean much as an argument to prove someone will win.

You used mma math to argue that Khabib has some advantage cause he beat Johnson while Ferguson lost to him by UD. That has no relevance cause Tony has improved so much from that fight and that fight had no wrestling and was all stand up. Even if the fight was recent it still has no relevance cause Tony's weakness in that fight doesnt play into Khabibs strengths.

If you're gonna make an argument I'll help you out....why not talk about how Kevin Lee mounted Tony and was out wrestling him as that was recent. That's a good example. You could have even gone with the Danny Castilo fight lol
Khabib doesnt take a guy down where Tony will be effective, he takes an opponent down where he is against the cage where he eliminates 3 of your limbs eaving you with 1 to either post up and try and escape or to block strikes to your face. Tony can submit anybody off his back and do damage off his back but Khabibs game does not take place in a clear space its against a cage where space is limited and takes away your tools. Khabib needs the fence to be 100% effective and still has yet to be in any danger. Tony is amazing but he cant beat Khabib against that fence with his legs tied up and one wrist controlled. He either blocks punches with that free hand or uses it to try and advance/escape which Khabib wants you to do.
 
I couldn't care less about what people THINK Khabib would do in the grapple v lightweights as he's a weight cheat who kills himself cutting weight to fight at lightweight when he should be fighting welterweight, to the point 2 fights have been called off already and he fought through seizures last fight.

I know Woodley fights against the cage and is shorter than Khabib and would beat him hands down. Khabib's a myth who is basically abusing the weight system and if it was the old school weight classes he wouldn't even be a champ

The fact that Khabib will retire rather than move up up welterweight says everything about him he's just doing about 1 or 2 more fights as the cut is too bad for the weight cheat.
 
A few questions that I think could play a factor in the outcome of this fight are:

Did Khabib reduce his pace in the 3rd-ish rounds of his last few fights because he had to, or because he could?

If Khabib does tire more than Tony, can Tony actually finish him?

If this fight goes into the later rounds, I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony more active, but it's hard to see him putting Khabib away. The guy's never been in trouble for even a minute in any of his UFC fights, and even if he drops the championship rounds to Tony I've got to think Khabib winning the first 3 is likely.

IF there's a finish, I see it being along the lines of round 1 of Lee vs Tony (which I realize wasn't a finish, but close...just rewatched it, great fight). Tony can sub just about anybody in the division not named Khabib.

Ferg has the best chance of beating Khabib in the division, but I don't think it will be enough. Unless Khabib gasses as hard as staph-Kevin Lee, which we have no reason to expect, I think he wins one way or another. Tony really does have near-GOAT cardio and an amazing ability to recover, but Khabib just doesn't get into trouble - on the feet, on the ground, or with his energy.

Also curious to see how Khabib uses his jab, and how Tony responds.

Pleeeease just fight already.
I love khabib but Tony is seriously a bad matchup for him I see a sub in the late fourth or fifth round by Tony
 
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