Kevin shouldn't let Wonder to stand up at the first takedown

[BEATDOWNS]

Ppl acting like Holland has some masterful top game. It’s weird. WB has seen far better grapplers I’m pretty certain.

That's not the point the point is he had chances to try to change the course of the fight a fight he was clearly losing and didn't. His pride got the best of him hope he learns from it but i am doubtful.

 

[Yep]

That's not the point the point is he had chances to try to change the course of the fight a fight he was clearly losing and didn't. His pride got the best of him hope he learns from it but i am doubtful.

Oh but that has been the point on this website by many people. That all Holland had to do was lay down some vicious gnp cuz he had the top position and WB is notoriously weak on the ground. WB isn’t weak on the ground for one. He has been controlled by the best grapplers in the division, yes. However, Holland sure as hell isn’t on those grappler’s levels. It was likely his best chance but I personally think he wasn’t going to keep control if he gnp and I don’t think he had the stamina to grind and keep him down.

 

[BEATDOWNS]

Oh but that has been the point on this website by many people. That all Holland had to do was lay down some vicious gnp cuz he had the top position and WB is notoriously weak on the ground. WB isn’t weak on the ground for one. He has been controlled by the best grapplers in the division, yes. However, Holland sure as hell isn’t on those grappler’s levels. It was likely his best chance but I personally think he wasn’t going to keep control if he gnp and I don’t think he had the stamina to grind and keep him down.

You keep missing the plot. The problem is he didn't even try.. I can't make it any simpler for you..

 

[Yep]

You keep missing the plot. The problem is he didn't even try.. I can't make it any simpler for you..

Not really. I was responding to the ppl on sherdog that are pretending it was some foregone conclusion that had he “tried” as you say he would’ve won. The point you’re making is entirely different and you seem to want to argue something. I actually agree with you that he should’ve tried. So, you’re going to
have to find someone else to argue with.

 

[Sticko]

Are we sure Holland has an edge on the ground?

Yes he does. WB has basically mo offensive grappling or submission threat while Holland is a BJJ black belt and has submitted a couple of guys in the UFC. Whether he could have held WB down I don't know.

 

[KOPPE]

He'll get a bonus. Get more fans.















That a Fan/crowd move.

and Dana will love you more. smart

 

[CPH]

Unless his hand was so mangled that it made him not want to grapple, this was one of the dumbest decisions I have seen in the octagon. If I was in Holland's corner, I would quit. The guy is an uncoachable knucklehead.

 

[Youtried]

He probably lost some fans too because it's frustrating to be a fan of his.

If you want a consistent dry winning fighter have you tried Belal Muhammad? Kevin's fight was cool and I'm gonna watch his next one because he has cool fights. I won't ever willingly watch a Belal or modern Arlovski fight even if they win 100 times.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

After all the crying about wrestlers he would have been a hypocrite if he grappled.

After quitting seconds after the fight he evolved and now he quit inside the cage.

 

[checktheknuckles]

Thank god he has your respect. Had to have been bothering him for years.

He gon take that respect to the bank and cash it in. Baller!

 

[Soggust]

Yes he does. WB has basically mo offensive grappling or submission threat while Holland is a BJJ black belt and has submitted a couple of guys in the UFC. Whether he could have held WB down I don't know.

But it's not Wonderboy's offensive wrestling and subs vs Holland, it's his ANTI-WRESTLING vs Holland's offensive wrestling and subs.

And prior to Burns and Belal, Wonderboy was notoriously hard to take and keep down. Holland certainly ain't no Belal or Burns, as he has literally been known for being a shit wrestler his entire career in UFC.

 

[AFewDollarsMore]

That costed him alright as he certainly got accosted after that

 

[bigmacbub]

Wonderbiy would had got his back to the cage and stood back up. Holland is no Belal or Burns. Holland gaied fans and his stock went up. If your stock went up and gained fans despite getting a loss you certainly did something right.

 

[SKYNET]

Are we sure Holland has an edge on the ground?

vs Wonderboy? yes.

Holland put Jacare to sleep on the ground. When has Wonderboy done anything on the ground besides use his gas tank to get up

Neutralizing Wonderboys kicks by taking him down and working the clinch makes way more sense than being a punching bag

 

[Soggust]

vs Wonderboy? yes.

Holland put Jacare to sleep on the ground. When has Wonderboy done anything on the ground besides use his gas tank to get up

Neutralizing Wonderboys kicks by taking him down and working the clinch makes way more sense than being a punching bag

Holland finished Jacare with strikes from his back in one of the flukiest finishes of all time, so I'm not sure how that correlates to taking and holding Wonderboy down with offensive wrestling over the course of 5 rounds.

A better argument would have been his D'arce on Means or his other subs, perhaps, but Holland is much more of an opportunist at best rather than a credentialed ground player. In fact, most of his losses have come from being bested on the ground. He could have made Thompson WORK to get up, sure, but I think the fact that he stood up in itself is very telling that he doesn't believe in his offensive control. Which makes sense, since the majority of his grappling is predicated on keeping the fight standing where Holland has an edge on just about anyone not named Wonderboy, Peireira, or Izzy.

Your second point is actually pretty valid in the sense of "he was clearly not doing much better on the feet". But I think with Holland, he knows he's been suspect at wrestling his entire career and you'd think he'd rather get beat at his best game (striking) and where he has the best chance of a finish (bc he believes in his power edge + first round he was close to one) rather than trying to reinvent himself into an offensive wrestler because his Plan A of being younger/faster/longer/more athletic didn't work.

 

[dre quinn]

Kinda bittersweet, I don't know, these showings are not always that good, hope at least they get bonus.

I was wanting to see holland win before the fight. Then as I saw big mouth get shut up by the NMF and instantly started rooting for thomson. Still bittersweet on the outcome as I would like to see holland back up his talk. Pretty good showing is all I can say.

 

[SKYNET]

Holland finished Jacare with strikes from his back in one of the flukiest finishes of all time, so I'm not sure how that correlates to taking and holding Wonderboy down with offensive wrestling over the course of 5 rounds

Fluke or not, Wonderboy has rarely displayed the proclivity towards being dominant on the ground. A stalemate on the ground with the size and reach advantage gives Holland a chance at another "fluke" lol KO while neutralizing Wonderboys kicks which essentially wore him out and possibly affected his ability to absorb punishment going forward in his career.

That's how it correlates

 

[Soggust]

Fluke or not, Wonderboy has rarely displayed the proclivity towards being dominant on the ground.

I would argue Wonderboy has proven over the course of his career to be much more adept at TDD than Kevin Holland has ever proven to be in top control (or shooting for takedowns if he decided to actively implement it in his gameplan).

A stalemate on the ground with the size and reach advantage gives Holland a chance at another "fluke" lol KO while neutralizing Wonderboys kicks which essentially wore him out and possibly affected his ability to absorb punishment going forward in his career.

It could have given him a chance to avoid the kicks, perhaps, or it could have gassed him out over the course of a 5 round fight if he was unsuccessful and ruined his only chance at a finish by not being able to carry power later in the fight.

Considering Holland didn't have the 20/20 hindsight we have today, it's reasonable to see why he decided in the moment that his best path forward was relying on his bread and butter (and ego of being a better striker) instead of turning into something that he clearly isn't. /shrug

 

[SKYNET]

I would argue Wonderboy has proven over the course of his career to be much more adept at TDD than Kevin Holland has ever proven to be in top control (or shooting for takedowns if he decided to actively implement it in his gameplan).

And I would argue TDD would factor in less if Wonderboys uncanny mobility which has caused problems for the majority of his opponents is being neutralized by the fact that hes facing a taller opponent with a reach advantage that can continously and persistently grapple with him against the cage. I would cite the actual evidence within the fight, particularly in the first 2 rounds, in which Hollands sub-par ability to secure takedowns was almost irrelevant as he was able to put Wonderboy on the ground and gain top control with his striking pressure. Whether he could establish sustained top control remained to be seen as he foolishly allowed Wonderboy back to his feet, thus allowing Wonderboy to impose his kicking attacks which eventually broke Hollands hand, ribs and his will to continue fighting

it could have gassed him out over the course of a 5 round fight if he was unsuccessful and ruined his only chance at a finish by not being able to carry power later in the fight...it's reasonable to see why he decided in the moment that his best path forward was relying on his bread and butter (and ego of being a better striker) instead of turning into something that he clearly isn't. /shrug

As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in another thread, the risk of gassing from executing a gameplan of grappling and takedowns to neutralize Wonderboys kicks and mobility, giving Holland a chance to win the earlier rounds before gassing while possibly inflicting damage via strikes and/or submission attempts, would have been an infinitely smarter option than allowing his ego (bread and butter) to have him standing there like a punching bag late in the 3rd and over the entire 4th round, while taking a vicious beating that potentially wore out his ability to absorb strikes moving forward in his career

 

[Soggust]

And I would argue TDD would factor in less if Wonderboys uncanny mobility which has caused problems for the majority of his opponents is being neutralized by the fact that hes facing a taller opponent with a reach advantage that can continously and persistently grapple with him against the cage. I would cite the actual evidence within the fight, particularly in the first 2 rounds, in which Hollands sub-par ability to secure takedowns was almost irrelevant as he was able to put Wonderboy on the ground and gain top control with his striking pressure. Whether he could establish sustained top control remained to be seen as he foolishly allowed Wonderboy back to his feet, thus allowing Wonderboy to impose his kicking attacks which eventually broke Hollands hand, ribs and his will to continue fighting



As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in another thread, the risk of gassing from executing a gameplan of grappling and takedowns to neutralize Wonderboys kicks and mobility, giving Holland a chance to win the earlier rounds before gassing while possibly inflicting damage via strikes and/or submission attempts, would have been an infinitely smarter option than allowing his ego (bread and butter) to have him standing there like a punching bag late in the 3rd and over the entire 4th round, while taking a vicious beating that potentially wore out his ability to absorb strikes moving forward in his career

I don't know, he almost finished Thompson in the first due to his range/speed/power striking. Seems to me that was his best chance of winning. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean another approach was better, he might have gotten finished even faster.

Again let me be super clear, I'm not going to disagree with "make him work for a standup when you fall on top of him". For sure. Just to make Thompson expend energy. No disagreement.

But I don't agree with trying to implement an active Takedown strategy as that's simply not his game and it's possible he just would have lost even faster - we don't know.