Media Kenny Florian on how to beat khabib

TheJohnnyWalkerEra said:
Tony hasn't beaten anyone on Dustin or Conor's level

Khabib subbed them both
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Conor who went 1-1 vs Nate Diaz, getting subbed and then eeking out a majority decision win.

Conor has 2 wins above 145 other than that one vs Nate. Eddie Alvarez and Cowboy.

Conor has a long way to go before the educated among us grant that he's some world beater above 145.
 
DeeDubb said:
I love BJJ, but they tend to agree with you. BJJ fighters who are elite off of their back tend to be creative strikers like Tony, but when they face really top notch wrestlers, they go in fearless and end up getting mauled on the ground, never finding the submission. Tony isn’t going to defend the takedown, and he’s going to be spending the fight on his back. It’s going to be a lot like prime Pettis, Mir, and Condit. They had no fear of being taken down because of their belief in their ability on their back, but elite wrestlers were able to stay safe on the top and ground and pound their way to victory.

I really hope I’m wrong though.
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uhh

literally the only wrestler that took down Mir and kept him on his back (at least during any relevant period in his career) was Brock.

Mir isn't the right example, but I get what you're saying.
 
mkess101 said:
Conor who went 1-1 vs Nate Diaz, getting subbed and then eeking out a majority decision win.

Conor has 2 wins above 145 other than that one vs Nate. Eddie Alvarez and Cowboy.

Conor has a long way to go before the educated among us grant that he's some world beater above 145.
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lol you always try to bash him.

the dude is an ELITE fighter. That's all there is to it dude. His skill-set is ELITE.

Secondly, instead of trying to bash Conor from that post you're replying to, which says that Khabib has beat Dustin and Conor who are better fighters than anyone Tony has fought, why didn't you simply reply with "that's false, RDA is equally as good" ? (nvm that Khabib has a win over him too)

You literally come in every thread to bash Conor at every chance, when he's not even the focal point of the conversation. You're one of the guys that makes the haters JUST as bad as the nuthuggers. Stop, you're better than that (usually).
 
Pakman said:
I like Aloe Vera's chances more. He doesn't have the heart or grit that Tony does, but, if anyone can produce a quick sub or land a strike out of nowhere that does damage, at LW, I think its him.

Everyone else would get smashed (as would Aloe Vera most likely, but, I think he has a better shot due to the willingness to be wild than the Hooker/Felder/Gillespie's of the world)
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I see your point and I think there is merit to it. I think a style that could give Khabib problems would be a next level BJJ guy with good guillotines and headlock chokes but who also has a good anti-wrestler striking arsenal. Someone who can keep Khabib at range with long non-committal strikes and force a bad shot and the skills to capitalize on said bad shot to find his neck.

Look at Fedor, he had great sub defense when in the guard and used that to smash guys with GnP from there. That worked until he tried it against a next level BJJ player with a killer guard in Werdum. But its not like Werdum started practicing his triangle-armbar for the Fedor camp, he was probably already a master at it for years.

Khabib leaves his neck wide open because he is so confident that even if his opponent gets a good hold of it he will be able to get out and get on top because he has so much more experience in grappling when compared to his opponents. So to take advantage of that you have to be a grappler who has experience tapping high level competitors in grappling with guillotines and other front headlock chokes. Poirier had a much better attempt than Michael Johnson but even then I doubt Poirier is a guillotine specialist who has tapped high level guys with that move and you could see Khabib was a step ahead of him the whole time. You can't be someone who gives Khabib that much time in the choke, gotta have a killer squeeze that gets the tap in a second or two or else I see Khabib getting out.
 
Pakman said:
uhh

literally the only wrestler that took down Mir and kept him on his back (at least during any relevant period in his career) was Brock.

Mir isn't the right example, but I get what you're saying.
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It wasn't on the ground, but Carwin's fight against Mir had a similar thing going on. Carwin clinched him up against the cage to hold him in place and then melted Mir's brains with atomic uppercuts. Brutal KO.
 
Pakman said:
lol you always try to bash him.

the dude is an ELITE fighter. That's all there is to it dude. His skill-set is ELITE.

Secondly, instead of trying to bash Conor from that post you're replying to, which says that Khabib has beat Dustin and Conor who are better fighters than anyone Tony has fought, why didn't you simply reply with "that's false, RDA is equally as good" ? (nvm that Khabib has a win over him too)

You literally come in every thread to bash Conor at every chance, when he's not even the focal point of the conversation. You're one of the guys that makes the haters JUST as bad as the nuthuggers. Stop, you're better than that (usually).
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Nah I just don't believe Conor has shown enough against bigger fighters to say he's a "better win" than numerous guys that Tony has beat. That's all.

Guess who has an elite skill set? Israel Adesanya. If he took one fight at LHW and beat one good fighter, that doesn't make him a better LHW win than someone like Corey Anderson. Why? Because Anderson has established himself over a long period of time against guys that size. It doesn't diminish Israel's skillset (which is still elite), it just means Anderson is a better LWH win at this point because Israel's track record at that weight is too short. Same as Conor. Is he a trash LW (or WW for that matter)? No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying he hasn't done nearly enough in those weight classes to just glibly say he's a better win than someone like...IDK...Josh Thomson (when Tony beat Thomson). One has a track record at LW, the other is an elite FW with limited time above that weight class.

Read most of my posts btw...very few have anything to do with Conor and I almost NEVER bring him up. But yes, when certain people simply expect that the rest of us have to accept their reality about a guy because he's popular, I'm not out of line to correct it.

And I'll go a step further and say I don't even have issue with those who do think Conor is an elite LW or WW. He MIGHT be. But that doesn't mean that without some kind of sustained success vs bigger guys that everyone needs to just blindly accept what his die hard supporters believe. That's stupid, people need to think for themselves. And I need to see more than what I have. Do I think he's a good LW? Yeah, I do. Elite (as in top 3-4 in the world)? I'm not so sure. Possibly, but maybe not.

Edit: And I'm going to add to this. EVEN if I was a hater (and my take is absolutely rational and it's hilarious that I would say that Conor is one of the best FW's ever--top 2 probably-- yet be a hater) you are comparing me and my view that we need to see more from Conor at higher weights before granting him top 3 status automatically to posts like this one:

Anything other than Conor 2.0 vs Khabib II next is a slap in the face to all the fight fans after seeing UFC 246. They have unfinished business that needs to be settled next before ramadan begins because Conor 2.0 wants to be active and doesnt want to wait untill septemper. If Khabib is too scared to fight then strip him and do Conor 2.0 vs Ferguson for Vacant Belt.

Yep, this is a recent post from today^^^. And that's what you've feebly attempted to equate my view with on the opposing "side" (and again, the notion that I'm some irrational hater is asinine to even begin with). This actually makes me slightly embarrassed for you making this comparison. Because generally, YOU are better than that.
 
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Pakman said:
uhh

literally the only wrestler that took down Mir and kept him on his back (at least during any relevant period in his career) was Brock.

Mir isn't the right example, but I get what you're saying.
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Yeah, I was mostly referring to Mir vs Brock 2. I didn't want to list examples for each, but I figured most people would get what I was talking about. Pettis and Condit had plenty of good wins off of their back against wrestlers too, which inflates their confidence in their ability to work off of their back. However, time in the cage is limited, and if you can't get the submission, you lose.
 
mkess101 said:
Nah I just don't believe Conor has shown enough against bigger fighters to say he's a "better win" than numerous guys that Tony has beat. That's all.

Guess who has an elite skill set? Israel Adesanya. If he took one fight at LHW and beat one good fighter, that doesn't make him a better LHW win than someone like Corey Anderson. Why? Because Anderson has established himself over a long period of time against guys that size. It doesn't diminish Israel's skillset (which is still elite), it just means Anderson is a better LWH win at this point because Israel's track record at that weight is too short. Same as Conor. Is he a trash LW (or WW for that matter)? No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying he hasn't done nearly enough in those weight classes to just glibly say he's a better win than someone like...IDK...Josh Thomson (when Tony beat Thomson). One has a track record at LW, the other is an elite FW with limited time above that weight class.

Read most of my posts btw...very few have anything to do with Conor and I almost NEVER bring him up. But yes, when certain people simply expect that the rest of us have to accept their reality about a guy because he's popular, I'm not out of line to correct it.

And I'll go a step further and say I don't even have issue with those who do think Conor is an elite LW or WW. He MIGHT be. But that doesn't mean that without some kind of sustained success vs bigger guys that everyone needs to just blindly accept what his die hard supporters believe. That's stupid, people need to think for themselves. And I need to see more than what I have. Do I think he's a good LW? Yeah, I do. Elite (as in top 3-4 in the world)? I'm not so sure. Possibly, but maybe not.

Edit: And I'm going to add to this. EVEN if I was a hater (and my take is absolutely rational and it's hilarious that I would say that Conor is one of the best FW's ever--top 2 probably-- yet be a hater) you are comparing me and my view that we need to see more from Conor at higher weights before granting him top 3 status automatically to posts like this one:

Anything other than Conor 2.0 vs Khabib II next is a slap in the face to all the fight fans after seeing UFC 246. They have unfinished business that needs to be settled next before ramadan begins because Conor 2.0 wants to be active and doesnt want to wait untill septemper. If Khabib is too scared to fight then strip him and do Conor 2.0 vs Ferguson for Vacant Belt.

Yep, this is a recent post from today^^^. And that's what you've feebly attempted to equate my view with on the opposing "side" (and again, the notion that I'm some irrational hater is asinine to even begin with). This actually makes me slightly embarrassed for you making this comparison. Because generally, YOU are better than that.
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this is a hilariously bad and long winded post about nothing.

You're trying to suggest he isn't based on what you haven't seen. I'm basing it on WHAT I HAVE seen, actual things that have happened.

When has Eddie looked like a complete amateur in a fight? Only vs Conor.

That is enough to let me know he is elite. You tried to belittle him AGAIN, when the post about Khabib having beat better competition than Tony. Conor and Dustin are better wins than the guys Tony has fought outside of RDA. JT fight was the last of a streak where he went 2-5 during a 7 fight stretch, let's not act like that was JT of 2009 dude.

Does that mean Tony is some can? No, he's a great fighter. As is Khabib. Khabib has just beat more elite fighters in the past 5 years. Are you gonna tell me Kevin Lee and RDA are better wins than Dustin and Conor? Because those are the 2 best wins on Tony's resume in the past 5 years.
 
Kafir-kun said:
I see your point and I think there is merit to it. I think a style that could give Khabib problems would be a next level BJJ guy with good guillotines and headlock chokes but who also has a good anti-wrestler striking arsenal. Someone who can keep Khabib at range with long non-committal strikes and force a bad shot and the skills to capitalize on said bad shot to find his neck.

Look at Fedor, he had great sub defense when in the guard and used that to smash guys with GnP from there. That worked until he tried it against a next level BJJ player with a killer guard in Werdum. But its not like Werdum started practicing his triangle-armbar for the Fedor camp, he was probably already a master at it for years.

Khabib leaves his neck wide open because he is so confident that even if his opponent gets a good hold of it he will be able to get out and get on top because he has so much more experience in grappling when compared to his opponents. So to take advantage of that you have to be a grappler who has experience tapping high level competitors in grappling with guillotines and other front headlock chokes. Poirier had a much better attempt than Michael Johnson but even then I doubt Poirier is a guillotine specialist who has tapped high level guys with that move and you could see Khabib was a step ahead of him the whole time. You can't be someone who gives Khabib that much time in the choke, gotta have a killer squeeze that gets the tap in a second or two or else I see Khabib getting out.
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this is why I said Aloe Vera. He's younger and I think more explosive than Tony is right now (even though Tony is obviously a much better fighter). But, he has that ability to snatch a sub and he's got KO power on the feet.
 
mkess101 said:
It's not just that (but that is part of it for sure), if you watch that time that you're talking about (where Lee had mount and was desperately throwing gnp at Tony) you can see the amount of energy Tony uses to avoid getting hit with any of it. Lee lands one shot that kinda glances off Tony's cheek, but the rest either misses or hits his arms and chest. But with most guys, you can't avoid gnp while mounted like that and have anything at all left in the tank. You just expend too much energy. Tony does it and then regains guard with about 3 seconds to go in the round by hip escaping. Most guys would be flat exhausted or at the least show some sign of fatigue after that scenario. Tony pops right up and it's like nothing happened at all, like he didn't use one bit of energy.

It's pretty hard to see a scenario where Khabib doesn't get Tony in a bad spot at some point. I'd imagine it's more likely half guard where he's trying to tie up one of Tony's arms and punch with the other (Khabib loves that spot, and usually doesn't even try to advance to mount). Most guys end up wilting under that pressure because it just exhausts them. As does constantly trying to get up and then Khabib just drags them back to the mat. Tony has a better chance than anyone of not fading in those spots, and possibly even making Khabib work hard enough that HE is the one who fades.

Khabib's camp aren't dummies though. He very likely may take a more conservative approach and trade the ability to inflict damage for the ability to retain control without using huge amounts of his energy stores. It will be a chess match on multiple levels.
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I think Khabib has the best camp for MMA other than GSP's Firas/Tristar gym. Abdulmanap is a great analyst.
 
Well, if you know so much Kenny then why don't you step out of retirement and do it?
 
TheJohnnyWalkerEra said:
Jiu Jitsu is useless against an elite wrestler who is elite in subs/sub defense

Khabib has nasty submission skills

The only chance against Khabib is a deadly striker with elite TDD
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I'd like to see someone put Khabib on his back. I know that sounds dumb but BJ came out and threw fitch way off guard by taking him down and it work til he gassed. I'd like too see someone at least have the balls to try it
 
FutureBwChamp said:
I'd like to see someone put Khabib on his back. I know that sounds dumb but BJ came out and threw fitch way off guard by taking him down and it work til he gassed. I'd like too see someone at least have the balls to try it
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Watch Khabib-Trujillo fight. It is indeed very interesting to see Khabib on his back, he's leveraging level and movement REAL QUICK. The round ended with Trujillo trapped under Khabib's triangle.
 
Katsushyro said:
Elite bjj with elite subs offence is not useless, specially if the wrestler is willing to engage.
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Things have evolved where heavy top control with defense beats subs from the bottom. I'm not saying 100 % but remember 8 years ago or so youd have like 3 triangles or arm bars per card. I honestly could not even name the last triangle or armbar and for everyone you can I could name 20 guys on top that won via ground and pound or on points from top control. Take Masvidal toying with Nate? His submission game is not as good as Nate's but he defended and chipped away on top
 
Locoo2 said:
Someone like say.. Edson Barboza ?
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Barboza was easily taken down

FutureBwChamp said:
I'd like to see someone put Khabib on his back. I know that sounds dumb but BJ came out and threw fitch way off guard by taking him down and it work til he gassed. I'd like too see someone at least have the balls to try it
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Khabib is a savage off his back. Before coming to the UFC he had some fights in Russia where he got taken down and he triangled 3 guys in a row

Abel Trujillo took him down several times and was in trouble immediately each time
 
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