ken shamrock: the Godfather of mma?

[wheelz]

I checked out shamrocks twitter and he said he is "the godfather of mma" and it got me thinking if that's actually true in terms of style and mentality. He was open minded enough to try different things, recognized the value of strength and conditioning, had a serious warriors mentality, he sold fights and was damn good at it, and was even smart enough to go off into pro wrestling because there wasn't any $ in mma. His student and adopted bro frank then took these same principles and revolutionized the sport even more during kens absence.

Now compare that to Royce. Sure they started the ufc from a business sense and with careful matchmaking and good bjj which got alot of people interested in the ground game, but what else? The "Gracie jiu jitsu" cult? Refusal to cross train other styles or have an open mind? Zero strength and conditioning? Leading martial artists astray for their worship and $?

All things considered I would have to say ken is indeed the godfather of mma

 

[skylolow]

Sure Ken is one of the god fathers of MMA. Royce is too. I won't hold much against Royce for growing up the Gracie way. Those kids from day one are brought up in a very sheltered world when it comes to open mind on the MMA side of things and all the way down to there diets.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I checked out shamrocks twitter and he said he is "the godfather of mma" and it got me thinking if that's actually true in terms of style and mentality. He was open minded enough to try different things, recognized the value of strength and conditioning, had a serious warriors mentality, he sold fights and was damn good at it, and was even smart enough to go off into pro wrestling because there wasn't any $ in mma. His student and adopted bro frank then took these same principles and revolutionized the sport even more during kens absence.

Now compare that to Royce. Sure they started the ufc from a business sense and with careful matchmaking and good bjj which got alot of people interested in the ground game, but what else? The "Gracie jiu jitsu" cult? Refusal to cross train other styles or have an open mind? Zero strength and conditioning? Leading martial artists astray for their worship and $?

All things considered I would have to say ken is indeed the godfather of mma

When you use Ken leaving for pro wrestling in order to make more $ as evidence that he's the Godfather of MMA, and then describe Gracie as "leading martial arts astray" for his worship of $, it isn't exactly a balanced analysis.

That said, no reason not to consider Ken one of the most important figures in the early days. Important enough that I won't argue if he wants to call himself "the Godfather of MMA." At least it's better than Tito calling himself the People's Champion.

 

[wheelz]

If you guys were to pick the #1 guy, who would it be? Because the more I research this the more I pick Ken while the Gracie's seem more and more like just some judo plagarist cult family.

In fact, kens basic principles of opened minded training covering all areas of the fight, warrior mentality during the fight, strength and conditioning, selling or hyping fights, and being aesthetic and marketable are still more advanced and over the heads of most pro mma fighters competing right now.

 

[Which Doctor]

When you use Ken leaving for pro wrestling in order to make more $ as evidence that he's the Godfather of MMA, and then describe Gracie as "leading martial arts astray" for his worship of $, it isn't exactly a balanced analysis.

That said, no reason not to consider Ken one of the most important figures in the early days. Important enough that I won't argue if he wants to call himself "the Godfather of MMA." At least it's better than Tito calling himself the People's Champion.

In all fairness, the people did love themselves some flames back then.

 

[wheelz]

FYI shamrock vs kimbo has the highest viewer #s of all time for bellator with that fight peaking at 2.3 million. Tito vs bonnar is #2 peaking at 2 million

2015 ken crushed Alvarez chandler and every bellator fighter who thinks he's a stud without having to sell fights Lol. MVP and Brennan ward were recently on the same card and had the worst ratings so far of the coker era although it wouldn't surprise me f Kati manhoef does worse

 

[BisexualMMA]

If you guys were to pick the #1 guy, who would it be? Because the more I research this the more I pick Ken while the Gracie's seem more and more like just some judo plagarist cult family.

In fact, kens basic principles of opened minded training covering all areas of the fight, warrior mentality during the fight, strength and conditioning, selling or hyping fights, and being aesthetic and marketable are still more advanced and over the heads of most pro mma fighters competing right now.

Since you are including things like Ken being aesthetic and marketable, then if I had to pick the #1 guy and considering these types of criteria, I would have to choose Royce, because his David vs Goliath image is what made the UFC gather steam back in the early days. That, in addition to actually winning the tournaments and beating Ken himself.

Ken was a more comprehensive mixed martial artist, but Ruas was a more comprehensive mixed martial artist than Ken. There is always someone better eventually. Royce was the original champ and defended the title in multiple tournaments, and was the face of the UFC.

Ken was important, but if Royce was Hulk Hogan, then Ken was Andre the Giant or the Macho Man.

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

For a long time BJJ or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (as they call it) was the best style in the world. It's going to take a bit for them to fully accept that MMA is bigger and better than BJJ but they're getting there.

Zero strength and conditioning? Royce fought Saku for 90 minutes! Helio's longest Vale Tudo fight was almost 4 hours long. The Gracies took conditioning very seriously. Strength not so much but Royce got busted for roids against Saku in their 2nd fight, so he must realize strength is also important, technique alone isn't always enough.

Both are legends. I can see your point though, Ken was a mixed martial artist and Royce was just a BJJ fighter. It worked for him though, he was more successful then Ken, despite being significantly smaller and weaker.

 

[wheelz]

@bisexual mma I never thought of Royce as a hogan type guy though, he just didn't have that aura. He was an x-pac sneaky little guy to me. Ken had the aura, maybe a bit like prime Goldberg mixed with a serious street fighter. He was f'ing scary and honestly the worlds most dangerous man in my eyes.

@beardotheweirdo 90 minute fights? Let's be honest, fighting should be extremely intense, furious, and vicious. The 90 minute stuff is hardly fighting in that sense, Royce was basically a wimp with techniques vs big guys who had stylistic disadvantages while the matchmakers were his family members. The end goal was getting into the walletts of thousands of Americans for 250-400$ per month for bjj lessons

 

[BisexualMMA]

@bisexual mma I never thought of Royce as a hogan type guy though, he just didn't have that aura. He was an x-pac sneaky little guy to me. Ken had the aura, maybe a bit like prime Goldberg mixed with a serious street fighter. He was f'ing scary and honestly the worlds most dangerous man in my eyes.

@beardotheweirdo 90 minute fights? Let's be honest, fighting should be extremely intense, furious, and vicious. The 90 minute stuff is hardly fighting in that sense, Royce was basically a wimp with techniques vs big guys who had stylistic disadvantages while the matchmakers were his family members. The end goal was getting into the walletts of thousands of Americans for 250-400$ per month for bjj lessons

The Hogan comparison wasn't really about size, personality or fighting style. It was more about being the champion around which the promotion was based. The popularity of the WWF couldn't really be separated from the popularity of Hogan, and it seemed like Royce had a similar role with the early UFC. Like Jordan to the NBA, Tiger Woods to golf, Gretzky to the NHL...if you took Royce out of the picture in those early days, you just had a series of tournaments without a face.

If Royce had not existed, perhaps Ken would have filled that role. Perhaps the Macho Man would have been Hulk Hogan if there had never been a Hulkster. Can't say for sure. I just know who the big star was that the promotion was actually built around.

 

[wheelz]

The Hogan comparison wasn't really about size, personality or fighting style. It was more about being the champion around which the promotion was based. The popularity of the WWF couldn't really be separated from the popularity of Hogan, and it seemed like Royce had a similar role with the early UFC. Like Jordan to the NBA, Tiger Woods to golf, Gretzky to the NHL...if you took Royce out of the picture in those early days, you just had a series of tournaments without a face.

If Royce had not existed, perhaps Ken would have filled that role. Perhaps the Macho Man would have been Hulk Hogan if there had never been a Hulkster. Can't say for sure. I just know who the big star was that the promotion was actually built around.

It was Royce's family that built it though. A comparablr is clay guidas family started a promotion in Israel and brought in locals for clay to crush, carefully checking the opponents style and capabilities beforehand, with the intention of selling expensive lessons for "guida fighting systems" after then yeah, clay is gonna be the guy its built around

 

[BisexualMMA]

It was Royce's family that built it though. A comparablr is clay guidas family started a promotion in Israel and brought in locals for clay to crush, carefully checking the opponents style and capabilities beforehand, with the intention of selling expensive lessons for "guida fighting systems" after then yeah, clay is gonna be the guy its built around

I kind of think you're looking at individual trees and not the forest with these comparisons...

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

@bisexual mma I never thought of Royce as a hogan type guy though, he just didn't have that aura. He was an x-pac sneaky little guy to me. Ken had the aura, maybe a bit like prime Goldberg mixed with a serious street fighter. He was f'ing scary and honestly the worlds most dangerous man in my eyes.

@beardotheweirdo 90 minute fights? Let's be honest, fighting should be extremely intense, furious, and vicious. The 90 minute stuff is hardly fighting in that sense, Royce was basically a wimp with techniques vs big guys who had stylistic disadvantages while the matchmakers were his family members. The end goal was getting into the walletts of thousands of Americans for 250-400$ per month for bjj lessons

Royce vs. Sakuaraba 1 was a no-time-limit fight, They went 6 full 15 minute rounds before Helio threw in the towel. 6 x 15 = 90 minutes. Watch the fight, they don't just circle each other for 90 minutes.

"Wimp" or not Royce tapped him, and Ken h. Royce went to Japan and joined the 2000 Open-Weight GP, Ken went to WWE.

The Gracies made BJJ world-famous which exposed almost all the other martial arts and lead to MMA, the true ultimate fighting style. The Gracies lead a revolution that drastically changed fighting (the oldest sport in the world) forever, and they did it overnight. It didn't go exactly as they planned but they still turned the oldest sport in the world upside down, over night.

Ken taught Frank to be great, their achievements aren't really comparable. As a person, I actually like Ken much better than Royce but the Gracies made MMA what it is, whether they wanted to or not.

 

[Katsumi Yamada]

@beardotheweirdo 90 minute fights? Let's be honest, fighting should be extremely intense, furious, and vicious. The 90 minute stuff is hardly fighting in that sense.

What the fuck are you talking about? That was the last fight I can remember where the rules stipulated no-limit, and it could ONLY end by a KO or submission or other stoppage.
Therefore its closer to what fighting "should be" than anything we see today.

Hogan comparisons are ridiculous... W
Pro wrestling was popular long long before hogan was.

 

[RawHawg]

Welcome back Jamal

 

[TrevorRoss]

"Wimp" or not Royce tapped him, and Ken h. Royce went to Japan and joined the 2000 Open-Weight GP, Ken went to WWE.

Ken fought Otsuka at the 2000 GP final.

As a person, I actually like Ken much better than Royce but the Gracies made MMA what it is, whether they wanted to or not.

Rorion Gracie made MMA what it is. If it wasn't for him moving to the states and getting things rolling, the Gracies would still be beating up bodybuilders and wrestlers in Brazil.

 

[wheelz]

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

Rorion Gracie made MMA what it is. If it wasn't for him moving to the states and getting things rolling, the Gracies would still be beating up bodybuilders and wrestlers in Brazil.

Sure, but he couldn't have won the tournament by himself, and he wouldn't have even considered it if it wasn't for the work Rickson and Helio put in, and the skills his family helped to develop. They all pushed each other, to promote Gracie BJJ.

 

[savemgs]

If you guys were to pick the #1 guy, who would it be? Because the more I research this the more I pick Ken while the Gracie's seem more and more like just some judo plagarist cult family.

In fact, kens basic principles of opened minded training covering all areas of the fight, warrior mentality during the fight, strength and conditioning, selling or hyping fights, and being aesthetic and marketable are still more advanced and over the heads of most pro mma fighters competing right now.

You win.

 

[Philo-Publius]

I checked out shamrocks twitter and he said he is "the godfather of mma" and it got me thinking if that's actually true in terms of style and mentality. He was open minded enough to try different things, recognized the value of strength and conditioning, had a serious warriors mentality, he sold fights and was damn good at it, and was even smart enough to go off into pro wrestling because there wasn't any $ in mma. His student and adopted bro frank then took these same principles and revolutionized the sport even more during kens absence.

Now compare that to Royce. Sure they started the ufc from a business sense and with careful matchmaking and good bjj which got alot of people interested in the ground game, but what else? The "Gracie jiu jitsu" cult? Refusal to cross train other styles or have an open mind? Zero strength and conditioning? Leading martial artists astray for their worship and $?

All things considered I would have to say ken is indeed the godfather of mma

He is probably just trying to piss off Royce by saying that because others might consider Royce to be the "godfather" of MMA.