Ken Shamrock is back to NHB fighting

[Merman]

If you try telling someone who watched him only in the last 1,5 decades or so that Ken used to be a fast and explosive submission artist they'll look at you like you told them you believe in Santa.

Wait...Santa's not real???

 

[Pure_Hatred]

In all seriousness that would be an amazing amount of draws...

He was playing some video game a glanced up at the screen. I asked him if he remembered Ken Shamrock from when he was little and he saw that headline.

 

[Kumason]

Hopefully he's fighting someone terrible, so he gets an easy win.

Edit: Sorry, It appears to be a pro-wrestling event.

Then edit your thread title.People will be sad just reading it.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Source? Ken fought Royce in UFC 1 just three days after he fought in Japan. Anyone who's made that trip, especially with the jet lag and altitude in the Rockies, knows how you'd feel...he was either way overconfident or didn't care much about winning....

That's not believable at all unless they're making the point that purple belts in 1993 aren't the same as purple belts in 2018. The Gracies started training as young kids and basically did nothing but teach and do "Gracie Challenge" fights all of the time. Royce may not have been the best of his family but he was light years ahead of almost all other grappler in terms of training and experience in UFC 1. That said, Ruas would probably beat him, so he wasn't invited.

You know, for a guy who brags about watching NHB back in the day like it was special, there are many basic facts from that time you don't know.

If you want a good starting resource, I recommend No Holds Barred: Ultimate Fighting and the Martial Arts Revolution by Clyde Gentry.

-Ken Shamrock began in UWF in Japan in 1990, which had a heavy emphasis on shoot (realistic) fighting. He was already training with Funaki and other legitimate fighters back then. Eventually UWF folded and Funaki, Shamrock, and others would get into Pro Wrestling Fujiwari Gumi. Almost everyone there was a legitimate fighter (to varying extents) and they trained actual submission grappling, which can be seen in the realistic nature of the worked matches, which still fool many people on Youtube to this day.

The first legitimate match Ken engaged in for Fujiwari Gumi was on October 4th, 1992, against kickboxer Don Nakaya Nielsen, which he won via submission. You will notice that is almost a full year before his debut in Pancrase. And this is assuming he had zero actual submission grappling from 1990-1992, which is almost certainly wrong.

-Royce was only about a purple belt when he was in UFC 1, yes. To be fair, back then, unlike today, getting belts was exceptionally difficult, and there were relatively few black belts in the entire world. However, he wasn't as heavily involved in the Gracie Challenge as his other relatives were, and nowhere near the level of Rickson, Royler, and Renzo back then.

I do believe that Royce eventually surpassed Renzo in terms of BJJ skill, and is a far greater MMA figure than any of his relatives from that time, but we're strictly talking about about BJJ ability in 1993 here.

Why was Royce chosen over the others? Aside from Royler being too small, Royce was simply the easiest guy for Rorion (then one of the co-owners of the UFC) to control. This is according to Big John McCarthy when he was on Rogan's podcast.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

I'm not a fan of that line of thinking. By that logic George Mikan would be an average big man compared to current NBA centers. Greatness, in my opinion, should be measured by what you managed to accomplish in your era.

I agree. However, in this case.

-Ken Shamrock was not the greatest of his era, either in terms of skills or results.
-Consideration should be made for how incredibly primitive, and how few serious fighters there were in MMA back then when comparing that very early era to later ones.

I love old-school NHB, but we have to be honest about what we're watching. The greatest fighter of that era, Dan Severn, was a washed-up amateur wrestler in his late 30's whose body was half-crippled from injuries during his heyday in the 80's, and who didn't learn or adopt to MMA much at all. (All this per Dan's own admissions, too) Look at what happened when Severn fought Coleman. (Coleman in my opinion being a greater legend than Ken Shamrock or Dan Severn)

Furthermore, there were guys back then who had considerable success and are even called "legends" who started MMA with no almost fighting background at all. They were just big, strong dudes.

Think I'm exaggerating? Consider

-Kimo Leopoldo. A street fighter with no formal training who was big, strong, and on a ton of steroids.

-Polar Bear Paul Varelans, my username. Probably Tank Abbot's most impressive victory and a guy who made both Ultimate Ultimates. He was a huge, strong guy whose fighting background consisted of a little bit of high school wrestling.

-Gary Goodridge. A legendary arm-wrestler and insanely strong dude who had done some amateur boxing when he was in his early teens.

Again, even in this landscape, Ken Shamrock was good, but not the best. Even before Belfort, Couture, and Rizzo showed up, and Bas Rutten and Maurice Smith learned a decent amount of grappling, I would still rank

Mark Coleman
Royce Gracie
Don Frye
Dan Severn

unquestionably ahead of Ken. Of course, there are many others who were on a comparable or better level, especially in terms of skill. From the standpoint of pure skill, and not Ken's size and steroid advantage (remember, most promotions didn't have weight classes then), these guys were as good as or better than him;

Renzo Gracie
Mario Sperry
Igor Zinoviev
Oleg Taktarov

(I could include Ralph Gracie, Royler Gracie, and Rickson Gracie too, but they admittedly never fought serious competition.)

Where does that put Shamrock? The first King of Pancrase. A UFC Superfight champion. Someone who holds wins over Funaki, Rutten, Smith, Severn....guys who were all top level in their era.

Again, let's be honest about what we're watching here. Rutten and Smith had just started MMA while transitioning from kick boxing. Rutten admits his entire grappling arsenal back then was limited to trying to get a guillotine on the other guy.

And the second Rutten vs. Ken Shamrock fight was a work, as noted earlier. This was not Rutten or Smith anywhere near what they would later become.

 

[ScoopSubMMA]

Probably because he never was.

The very first MMA event I ever watched was UFC 7: The Brawl in Buffalo in 1995, where Ken Shamrock took on Oleg Taktarov in the Super Fight. Despite all the steroids Ken was on (not controversial, since he has tested positive multiple times, and him and training partners have all but admitted it) and being significantly bigger, he could do little except take Taktarov, a very average wrestler, down and land piddly, crappy GnP.

In fact, Taktarov would have gotten a kneebar against him if not for a really bad habit he had from his sambo background, keeping his head too close to Shamrock. The fight ended up as a time limit draw.

I respect Ken Shamrock as a pioneer, but his reputation always exceeded his actual fighting abilities.

In the early to mid 90's, Ken was a decent wrestler with poor striking and GnP and a very old-school submission game that worked in very early Pancrase and marginally in the early UFC but would be antiquated by 2000. When he came back from pro wrestling in 2000, his knees were shot, making him a mediocre wrestler who couldn't get takedowns anymore. His striking had improved, however, and he could throw some hard punches. However, his cardio had gotten much worse in that time as well.

Ken's best fight in MMA from the standpoint of skills is actually a loss; against Kazayuki Fujita at PRIDE 10, he did a fine job of sprawling-and-brawling and beating up Fujita before his cardio betrayed him and he had to quit.

Anyways, I know Ken Shamrock has been having money problems since the 90's thanks to his various divorces and poor spending habits. Sad he has to resort to this to make money.

My take on Shamrock is pretty similar. Below is one of my earlier posts about him. His money issues mainly come from his bonehead decision to sue the UFC after the second two Tito fights. He made big money on those just on name value and blew it.

I liked Ken back in the day, but damn it got hard to watch him as time went on. He combined lack of evolution, bad game plans, and terrible fight IQ all into one.

Unfortunately for him, his dumbest move was outside the cage/ring. He decided to sue the UFC for breach of contract for not giving him more fights after getting smoked by Tito twice in a row. He lost and was ordered to pay the UFC's legal fees, so basically blew the money he made from getting smashed by Tito.

Career/Legacy-wise he should have retired after the Frye fight. Even though he lost the decision you had to respect the shit out of both of them for that fight.

Money-wise he should have strolled into the sunset after the cash haul of the 2nd and 3rd Tito fights. He could have taken fights here and there if he wanted to, but he wouldn't need them. Hopefully he's doing ok, but he would definitely be doing a lot better if he had taken this route.

 

[Double Dragon]

My son saw 1-31-19 and asked if that was his record.

hahahahaha

that is pure gold, tell your son ty for that

 

[Double Dragon]

Forget shamrock, bai ling looks amazing for 52
Wood.

oh wow she's 52?

Bai passed out semi naked in a limo was my desktop wallpaper over 10 years ago, I guess I shouldn't be surprised

 

[UFC=Pride]

Ken must need the money

 

[UFC=Pride]

My son saw 1-31-19 and asked if that was his record.