Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie's last MMA fight

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Both are pioneers of the sport but I wouldn’t put it past either one to be involved in a fixed match or to cheat. Royce fought dirty and PEDs and Ken’s slip vs Rich was super suspect.

watch his feet. What the hell was he doing ???

I dont think Ken threw the fight with Franklin. I remember an interview where Rich said that Shamrock messed his leg up for a while from the leglock right after this. It did and does look weird as hell though.

 

[gono btw]

But Ken’s first fight was with Pat Smith, who was dangerous (to ken, it he got caught slipping or took a kick or punch, possible.)

Sumo guy isn’t dangerous but a hard nut to crack for anyone but Royce...

This meant Gordeau who was the semifinalist, would most likely be hurt against Royce, which he was...

I’m not saying Royce wouldn’t kill Gordeau 100% fresh, I’m saying it didn’t help Gerard was less than perfect going in.

Pat was dangerous to Wayne, sure... but it´s not enough... their best interest was to send him to the other bracket & face the 2 other most dangerous fighters of the Tournament.
If you want to protect Hoyce, you naturally dont put him in the very same bracket as Wayne... you make him go through 2 potential wars b4 reachin´ the final fight...

Meanwhile, claimin´that they could anticipate a potential injury for whoever would face Tuli is a reach... historically, most of them sumos who competed in MMA quickly gave up when the fight went to the ground...

Overall, if you have a closer look at the brackets:

1. Kevin Rozier was shamelessly out of shape [acknowledged by Art Davie when he met him at the airport]... clearly fat.
2. Zane Frazier had asthma... not good for a one-night tournament, no time limit fights
3. Tuli was a sumo... idem

Well... these 3 opponents were all in the other... bracket...
Hoyce´s bracket had arguably 3 of the 4 most dangerous fighters...

 

[Phrozenspite]

Creative entry into what appears to be a devastating achilles lock

imagine what would've happened if that was palhares on his leg

 

[Coconutwater]

Pat was dangerous to Wayne, sure... but it´s not enough... their best interest was to send him to the other bracket & face the 2 other most dangerous fighters of the Tournament.
If you want to protect Hoyce, you naturally dont put him in the very same bracket as Wayne... you make him go through 2 potential wars b4 reachin´ the final fight...

Meanwhile, claimin´that they could anticipate a potential injury for whoever would face Tuli is a reach... historically, most of them sumos who competed in MMA quickly gave up when the fight went to the ground...

Overall, if you have a closer look at the brackets:

1. Kevin Rozier was shamelessly out of shape [acknowledged by Art Davie when he met him at the airport]... clearly fat.
2. Zane Frazier had asthma... not good for a one-night tournament, no time limit fights
3. Tuli was a sumo... idem

Well... these 3 opponents were all in the other... bracket...
Hoyce´s bracket had arguably 3 of the 4 most dangerous fighters...

Again, last time bro, just allowing Royce to fight a boxer with no grappling and making sure everyone else has a tough fight helped him.

And Keith Hackney hurt himself against Emmanuel. That was a completely blind drawing, I’m just illustrating the fact that non-BJJ blackbelts with Royce’s experience can easily be injured against a sumo guy, particularly strikers.

 

[gono btw]

Again, last time bro, just allowing Royce to fight a boxer with no grappling and making sure everyone else has a tough fight helped him.

And Keith Hackney hurt himself against Emmanuel. That was a completely blind drawing, I’m just illustrating the fact that non-BJJ blackbelts with Royce’s experience can easily be injured against a sumo guy, particularly strikers.

hmm...nah... One Glove or Tuli were both easy 'preys', you´re reachin´... You can break a hand against a fat giant, but you can also break it against a tiny... SAKU...

My very last assessment: Hoyce´s bracket had arguably 3 of the 4 most dangerous fighters... is hardly refutable, for the reasons I stated.
Would you claim otherwise?

 

[Coconutwater]

hmm...nah... One Glove or Tuli were both easy 'preys', you´re reachin´... You can break a hand against a fat giant, but you can also break it against a tiny... SAKU...

My very last assessment: Hoyce´s bracket had arguably 3 of the 4 most dangerous fighters... is hardly refutable, for the reasons I stated.
Would you claim otherwise?

The most dangerous striker, Gordeau, was forced to hurt himself against sumo, and then fight with hefty Kevin, by his third fight, he was hampered, even though Royce beats him fresh, regardless.

The true toughest fighter second to Royce was Shamrock, and Shamrock was forced to face Smith, who Rorion hoped would be a tougher fight, but Ken was too slick for Pat, Rorion probably hoped Ken would get popped at least once in the face.

Breaking your hand on a sumo wrestler is easier than on a smaller fighter if the only weapons you have are striking.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Both are pioneers of the sport but I wouldn’t put it past either one to be involved in a fixed match or to cheat. Royce fought dirty and PEDs and Ken’s slip vs Rich was super suspect.

watch his feet. What the hell was he doing ???

Diving for a leg...ken.was known for diving for legs..it was just timed badly and almost got his head taken off..it was kinda like a wwe flop back to a leg grab type thing

 

[CTE_Fan]

Something stupid always happens when Ken shamrock fights. He's got the worst aura

 

[Vec-Tron]

I'm not sure Ken hasn't thrown a few fights in his career.

 

[gono btw]

The most dangerous striker, Gordeau, was forced to hurt himself against sumo, and then fight with hefty Kevin, by his third fight, he was hampered, even though Royce beats him fresh, regardless.

The true toughest fighter second to Royce was Shamrock, and Shamrock was forced to face Smith, who Rorion hoped would be a tougher fight, but Ken was too slick for Pat, Rorion probably hoped Ken would get popped at least once in the face.

Breaking your hand on a sumo wrestler is easier than on a smaller fighter if the only weapons you have are striking.

Gordeau was not 'forced', again you´re reachin´there... If you´re tellin´me that b4 the fight you were expectin´ Gordeau to get injured, thanks to some obscure 'conspiracy' from Horion.... it´s gonna be a hard sell, mate...

I repeat: Hoyce´s bracket had 3 of the 4 most dangerous opponents, & had there been seeds, because of the reasons I presented, they would have been top4 seeds.

Now, this is what actually happened, disqualifyin´that narrative about Horion organizin´/manipulatin´this whole thing...

Spoiler: Art Davie´s book - 'Is It Legal?'

"Late that night, I sat down alone to make out the tournament bracket.
Rorion told me that whatever I decided was good with him, as did Campbell.
For Rorion, this was because he truly believed that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was unbeatable, so it didn’t matter who Royce fought and when.

Of the eight tournament fighters, I felt that only Royce, Shamrock and Gordeau had a realistic chance of claiming the $50,000 first prize.

I didn’t want grappler versus grappler in the Final, as this could be a boring grind-fest that would end the night on a bad note.
So I knew that I had to put Royce and Shamrock in the same half of the draw.

I had long ago made up my mind to pit Royce against Jimmerson in the opening round.
Rorion had really intrigued me with his oft-told story of Hélio’s challenge to Joe Louis back in 1947, and I wanted to see how Gracie Jiu-Jitsu would fair against someone who really knew how to punch.

Seeing how Smith had behaved at the hotel all week in Denver helped me decide to match him against Shamrock in the opening round.
While Smith was loudmouthed and cocky, Shamrock was quiet confidence and cool. I liked Smith, and after all, he was
the very first fighter that I had signed. But he was also a bit of a bully, and I couldn’t help but think that it would be
interesting to see him humbled by Shamrock.

I then thought Gordeau versus Frazier and Tuli versus Rosier for the two remaining first round bouts.
Gordeau against Frazier would be a contrast of North American and European kickboxing styles, and Tuli facing Rosier
would produce a freak show between the two behemoths.

But in the thin mile-high air of Denver, it seemed very likely that both of my super heavyweights would be exhausted in a matter of moments if there wasn’t a quick victory for one of them.
Inevitably, the pair would just move around in slow motion after that.
Also, I remembered hearing Gordeau say to a radio reporter that morning that he was always being compared to a bullfighter, using agility and skill to defeat larger opponents throughout his career.
This made a real impression onme. Who was more of a bull than the giant Hawaiian? So I decided that it would be
Gordeau vs.

Tuli and Frazier vs. Rosier.
Those two fights would open the night, as I figured that they’d likely be the most violent, and we needed to grab both the in-arena and PPV television audiences right off the bat.

Royce against Jimmerson would be third, and then Shamrock vs. Smith would conclude the opening round.
I didn’t want Royce going last, as it might give off the impression that he was the “main event” fighter—
leading to more grumbles of Gracie favoritism

Gordeau would be in the top half of the draw, likely meeting either Royce or Shamrock in the Final.
Of course anything could happen —in fighting everyone always has a puncher’s chance—but I had to project
the course of the night as best as I could, based on everything that I knew about the physical, mental and
emotional states of my eight fighters."

 

[TheMaster]

See, my impression was the opposite. I'm like 5'9" 155 lbs, and Ken wasn't that much bigger standing next to me. I think he packed a ton of muscle onto a relatively small frame, but I don't think he's naturally a big guy. It's insane to me that he used to weigh around 230.

Yeah you only have to see the Tito fight to see how he was dwarfed by tito. But make no mistake Ken was a HW. No weight cutting bs like today the man was built like a tank in his prime and it fit his fighting style.

If you recall, he was a coach for IFL, but then Dana took him to court, and and by then Ken was already broke.

If you read the recent Snowden biography on Ken, a few things become really clear:

- HIs body was falling apart post-WWF and he simply didn't have the money or time to fix it
- He didn't have money because his marriage was a train wreck, and no one helped him manage his finances
- He had a pretty bad drug problem, which just added to the problems listed above

I will always love Shamrock, just because of how much I owe to him. I became a fan of the UFC/MMA because of him, and then I started watching WWF again because of him. For years when I worked out he was a source of inspiration. Much of his personal story is incredible--when you find out how screwed up his childhood was, and how he used that as motivation to become something, it's pretty inspiring. (He gave a great, really open interview to Stone Cold Steve Austin on his podcast a few years back--Part I is about his early days, and Part II is about his MMA/WWF career). It was tough seeing him lose fight after fight in embarrassing fashion, learning about his drug abuse was sort of disillusioning, and some of the stuff he posts on Twitter is just so incredibly dumb (lots of COVID conspiracy theory crap)--that said, he is one of the most important pioneers of the UFC/MMA, and he was a legit badass from 93-96. His fight with Frye in 2002 is also an all-time classic.

The Frye fight was legendary and could have gone either way.
Considering Fryes rep for toughness it shows you where Ken was at at that time and even sadder he went out like he did.

I was also introduced to the world of MMA through Ken.
Stories of when he was younger and for example was made to do 500 squats when he got off the airplane in Japan contribute to the legend.
It's actually sad he was not really manged properly late on, he could have leveraged his name and done a lot of great things instead of trying to fight on when his abilities had left him.

We remember the true badassness of Ken which is why I still say he takes out prime Brock considering Olympion Severn could not move him, and prime Ken competes with any of the heavyweights of today.

 

[TheMaster]

Pat was dangerous to Wayne, sure... but it´s not enough... their best interest was to send him to the other bracket & face the 2 other most dangerous fighters of the Tournament.
If you want to protect Hoyce, you naturally dont put him in the very same bracket as Wayne... you make him go through 2 potential wars b4 reachin´ the final fight...

Meanwhile, claimin´that they could anticipate a potential injury for whoever would face Tuli is a reach... historically, most of them sumos who competed in MMA quickly gave up when the fight went to the ground...

Overall, if you have a closer look at the brackets:

1. Kevin Rozier was shamelessly out of shape [acknowledged by Art Davie when he met him at the airport]... clearly fat.
2. Zane Frazier had asthma... not good for a one-night tournament, no time limit fights
3. Tuli was a sumo... idem

Well... these 3 opponents were all in the other... bracket...
Hoyce´s bracket had arguably 3 of the 4 most dangerous fighters...

While this is true,the choice of fighters to let into the tourney was itself favourable to Royce.
No Gokor for example.
No Ruas
No Takatarov

Even Tank Abbot if he had been given a fight with Royce around UFC 5 could have violently ended the Gracie myth if he had been sensible enough to just standup if he got Royce on the ground.

 

[Coconutwater]

Gordeau was not 'forced', again you´re reachin´there... If you´re tellin´me that b4 the fight you were expectin´ Gordeau to get injured, thanks to some obscure 'conspiracy' from Horion.... it´s gonna be a hard sell, mate...

I repeat: Hoyce´s bracket had 3 of the 4 most dangerous opponents, & had there been seeds, because of the reasons I presented, they would have been top4 seeds.

Now, this is what actually happened, disqualifyin´that narrative about Horion organizin´/manipulatin´this whole thing...

Spoiler: Art Davie´s book - 'Is It Legal?'

"Late that night, I sat down alone to make out the tournament bracket.
Rorion told me that whatever I decided was good with him, as did Campbell.
For Rorion, this was because he truly believed that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was unbeatable, so it didn’t matter who Royce fought and when.

Of the eight tournament fighters, I felt that only Royce, Shamrock and Gordeau had a realistic chance of claiming the $50,000 first prize.

I didn’t want grappler versus grappler in the Final, as this could be a boring grind-fest that would end the night on a bad note.
So I knew that I had to put Royce and Shamrock in the same half of the draw.

I had long ago made up my mind to pit Royce against Jimmerson in the opening round.
Rorion had really intrigued me with his oft-told story of Hélio’s challenge to Joe Louis back in 1947, and I wanted to see how Gracie Jiu-Jitsu would fair against someone who really knew how to punch.

Seeing how Smith had behaved at the hotel all week in Denver helped me decide to match him against Shamrock in the opening round.
While Smith was loudmouthed and cocky, Shamrock was quiet confidence and cool. I liked Smith, and after all, he was
the very first fighter that I had signed. But he was also a bit of a bully, and I couldn’t help but think that it would be
interesting to see him humbled by Shamrock.

I then thought Gordeau versus Frazier and Tuli versus Rosier for the two remaining first round bouts.
Gordeau against Frazier would be a contrast of North American and European kickboxing styles, and Tuli facing Rosier
would produce a freak show between the two behemoths.

But in the thin mile-high air of Denver, it seemed very likely that both of my super heavyweights would be exhausted in a matter of moments if there wasn’t a quick victory for one of them.
Inevitably, the pair would just move around in slow motion after that.
Also, I remembered hearing Gordeau say to a radio reporter that morning that he was always being compared to a bullfighter, using agility and skill to defeat larger opponents throughout his career.
This made a real impression onme. Who was more of a bull than the giant Hawaiian? So I decided that it would be
Gordeau vs.

Tuli and Frazier vs. Rosier.
Those two fights would open the night, as I figured that they’d likely be the most violent, and we needed to grab both the in-arena and PPV television audiences right off the bat.

Royce against Jimmerson would be third, and then Shamrock vs. Smith would conclude the opening round.
I didn’t want Royce going last, as it might give off the impression that he was the “main event” fighter—
leading to more grumbles of Gracie favoritism

Gordeau would be in the top half of the draw, likely meeting either Royce or Shamrock in the Final.
Of course anything could happen —in fighting everyone always has a puncher’s chance—but I had to project
the course of the night as best as I could, based on everything that I knew about the physical, mental and
emotional states of my eight fighters."

Alright, you got me, it wasn’t preordained by Rorion who Royce would face... but dude got lucky the the most dangerous pure striker fought a 300 pound man to pound his feet and fists into and that Shamrock was the only real competition for Royce.

I understand or heard somewhere that Rorion rejected some fighters they deemed as risky, but this is another argument...

 

[gono btw]

While this is true,the choice of fighters to let into the tourney was itself favourable to Royce.
No Gokor for example.
No Ruas
No Takatarov

Even Tank Abbot if he had been given a fight with Royce around UFC 5 could have violently ended the Gracie myth if he had been sensible enough to just standup if he got Royce on the ground.

Alright, you got me, it wasn’t preordained by Rorion who Royce would face... but dude got lucky the the most dangerous pure striker fought a 300 pound man to pound his feet and fists into and that Shamrock was the only real competition for Royce.

I understand or heard somewhere that Rorion rejected some fighters they deemed as risky, but this is another argument...

> Gokor was retired (only unretired @ World Fighting Federation in 1997 because he wanted to "promote his students" & because Lebell was involved)

> Oleg was not in America when UFC 1 happened, he contacted UFC in 1994.
If he was ducked, it was realistically after UFC 2.

> Huas was indeed ducked but not @ UFC 1, was ducked by Hickson in Brazil.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/

 

[Achilles00]

hmmm...yeahhh... shoes... it´s a myth, tho... they were allowed, but... no kickin´... not sure why Wayne Shamrock whined about it since his skill set at the time included much more knees than kicks...

Maybe. But maybe you're all missing the point that a guy was used to fighting a certain way (and he did throw kicks occasionally) but was now being told he couldn't fight that way. I think it's a fair grievance. It may not have mattered--Ken's arrogance going in was probably the actual difference maker--but it's an example of some of the little things the Gracies did to tip the scales in favor of Royce.

In the end, I owe so much to both guys. I first started BJJ in 2000 at a Royce school (which sadly no longer exists), and before that got into MMA because of Ken. And really, Ken drew me back into MMA when he came back from wrestling. Their rivalry helped put MMA on the map; the third fight in Bellator was never going to be a meaningful chapter in that story. Sucks for Ken that his career ended on a nut shot, but if you go back and watch him from 1993-1996, he was awesome and that's how he should be remembered.

 

[King.]

Yeah you only have to see the Tito fight to see how he was dwarfed by tito. But make no mistake Ken was a HW. No weight cutting bs like today the man was built like a tank in his prime and it fit his fighting style.



The Frye fight was legendary and could have gone either way.
Considering Fryes rep for toughness it shows you where Ken was at at that time and even sadder he went out like he did.

I was also introduced to the world of MMA through Ken.
Stories of when he was younger and for example was made to do 500 squats when he got off the airplane in Japan contribute to the legend.
It's actually sad he was not really manged properly late on, he could have leveraged his name and done a lot of great things instead of trying to fight on when his abilities had left him.

We remember the true badassness of Ken which is why I still say he takes out prime Brock considering Olympion Severn could not move him, and prime Ken competes with any of the heavyweights of today.

Well said. I especially rate his fight against Fujita as a masterclass. Make no mistake about Fujita, he was legit back then. Ken was straight whooping him until the heart weirdness and he was already pushing 40 by then with lots of wear and tear on his body.

I wouldn't say he was dwarfed by Tito though. Ken without cutting was always about 220 or just under. I imagine Tito weighs as much in fighting shape in the cage as well. Think Ken commented in one of his books how people always estimated him to be about 240-250 but only ever weighed that in the wwe.

 

[gono btw]

Maybe. But maybe you're all missing the point that a guy was used to fighting a certain way (and he did throw kicks occasionally) but was now being told he couldn't fight that way. I think it's a fair grievance. It may not have mattered--Ken's arrogance going in was probably the actual difference maker--but it's an example of some of the little things the Gracies did to tip the scales in favor of Royce.

.

The OW Config. was already an equalizer, tho.
Shoes or gloves, UFC 1 is the direct heir from the traditional Brazilian Vale Tudo days, & that´s how things were done since 1934, whether them Gracies would be involved or not [see the different scenes outside Rio de Janeiro]

Ken´s skill set at the time was heavily influenced by his Pancrase run, & he obviously couldnt anticipate the necessary adjustments he had to do while facin´a BJJ guard in a pure NHB environment.

 

[PD4838]

See, my impression was the opposite. I'm like 5'9" 155 lbs, and Ken wasn't that much bigger standing next to me. I think he packed a ton of muscle onto a relatively small frame, but I don't think he's naturally a big guy. It's insane to me that he used to weigh around 230.

Hmm. Well not to get into height/weight arguments in Sherdog but here we go. I am guessing he was older when you saw him. Im 45, 6'4 about 210, now 18% body fat but competed at 10% until late 30's. Ken was big in the day, easily 230 lbs. He was dense, and buff (on the juice, of course) . When you get older you lose muscle mass, thats a fact. Ive been the same height weight since mid 20's and work out daily, but softer. Ive seen Ken in his late 40's and I agree with you. But not when he was younger. Anyway, thats my take for whatever its worth.

 

[Achilles00]

Hmm. Well not to get into height/weight arguments in Sherdog but here we go. I am guessing he was older when you saw him. Im 45, 6'4 about 210, now 18% body fat but competed at 10% until late 30's. Ken was big in the day, easily 230 lbs. He was dense, and buff (on the juice, of course) . When you get older you lose muscle mass, thats a fact. Ive been the same height weight since mid 20's and work out daily, but softer. Ive seen Ken in his late 40's and I agree with you. But not when he was younger. Anyway, thats my take for whatever its worth.

This was back in 2007, so he was in his early 40s then I think. He was still bulky but he wasn't 6'1" or whatever he's often been billed at.

 

[mkt]

It wasn’t fixed but the fighter selection and brackets definitely helped Royce win those.

Exactly. Royce started with the easiest guy in the tournament: a one-armed boxer. He ends with Gordeau--a good striker who has a broken hand and broken foot, so he was pretty much useless.