Ken fears no one

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

There was no one between 1993 and 1996 that was anything close to well-rounded by modern standards, though.

Perfectly aware. What does that change about my post?

 

[mkt]

Perfectly aware. What does that change about my post?

Take it easy, man. It was just a comment because some people here never watched in that era. They like to judge mid-1990s fighters by current MMA standards. I'm just saying Shamrock was in the same boat as all the other good fighters from his prime.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Take it easy, man. It was just a comment because some people here never watched in that era. They like to judge mid-1990s fighters by current MMA standards. I'm just saying Shamrock was in the same boat as all the other good fighters from his prime.

I think Don Frye was the first guy who was at least mildly competent at something other than his base, since he could throw solid punches. Unfortunately for Frye, he used to wrestle at 165 pounds or so in college, so even with "enhancement" he was about 210 pounds, which was far too small to deal with Mark Coleman (a better wrestler, regardless) even with a more well-rounded skillset.

People like to cite Marco Ruas, but he gets a lot more credit than he deserves. His striking was actually quite poor overall; at the first Ultimate Ultimate, Oleg Taktarov (whose own striking was barely existent) out-struck him.

Oddly enough, Vitor Belfort was very well-rounded for when he debuted, as he had some wrestling, jits, AND good striking.

 

[mkt]

I think Don Frye was the first guy who was at least mildly competent at something other than his base, since he could throw solid punches. Unfortunately for Frye, he used to wrestle at 165 pounds or so in college, so even with "enhancement" he was about 210 pounds, which was far too small to deal with Mark Coleman (a better wrestler, regardless) even with a more well-rounded skillset.

People like to cite Marco Ruas, but he gets a lot more credit than he deserves. His striking was actually quite poor overall; at the first Ultimate Ultimate, Oleg Taktarov (whose own striking was barely existent) out-struck him.

Oddly enough, Vitor Belfort was very well-rounded for when he debuted, as he had some wrestling, jits, AND good striking.

I agree on Frye--good point. I'm not so sure on Belfort. He had some submission skills, but I think it was largely a ruse to keep people from going to the ground with him. His biggest edge was on the feet. To this day, he had some of the fastest hands this sport has seen for a 185+ pound fighter IMO. Tank later said he should've taken him down, and halfway tried to at the end of their fight, but was too dazed by punches. Vitor had a couple of early submission wins, but they were against the likes of Joe Charles (a "judo" guy who was submitted by almost everyone one he fought).

I was active on AOL's NHB boards back in the 90s, and even then people questioned his "black belt" and ground skills. I'm sure his submissions were pretty good for late 90s standards, but I don't think he was dangerous like Renzo, Taktarov, Frank Shamrock, Bustamente, etc. In hindsight, his opponents would've had more success clinching (like Randy) or wrestling and taking it to the ground (like Sakuraba). But hardly anyone wanted to grapple with the Gracie's adopted son.

By the time Frank Shamrock came to the UFC (around the same time Vitor came), he was also pretty competent in striking and submissions. As for Vitor's wrestling, I don't remember much of that...just maybe some unnatural strength from his "supplements."

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

I agree on Frye--good point. I'm not so sure on Belfort. He had some submission skills, but I think it was largely a ruse to keep people from going to the ground with him. His biggest edge was on the feet. To this day, he had some of the fastest hands this sport has seen for a 185+ pound fighter IMO. Tank later said he should've taken him down, and halfway tried to at the end of their fight, but was too dazed by punches. Vitor had a couple of early submission wins, but they were against the likes of Joe Charles (a "judo" guy who was submitted by almost everyone one he fought).

Yes and no. Belfort's "black belt" was indeed a complete fraud, a gift from Carlson Gracie and a way for the Gracies to claim him as one of theirs. (His original name for UFC 12, as I'm sure you know, was "Victor Gracie")

He was probably either a blue or purple belt at that point. Still, even possessing that much submission skill made him unusually well-rounded for that time. Consider too that by many people's estimations, Royce Gracie was only at the level of a decent purple belt when he debuted in UFC 1.

Not to mention that Belfort could wrestle to a degree, which he displayed in easily stuffing Tank's (or Ferrozzo's) lousy attempts or the way he easily out-grappled Telligman or Matsui.

I'm sure his submissions were pretty good for late 90s standards, but I don't think he was dangerous like Renzo, Taktarov, Frank Shamrock, Bustamente, etc.

Sure, all of those guys were vastly superior submission grapplers to Vitor Belfort back then.

By the time Frank Shamrock came to the UFC (around the same time Vitor came), he was also pretty competent in striking and submissions. As for Vitor's wrestling, I don't remember much of that...just maybe some unnatural strength from his "supplements."

Frank Shamrock was way, way ahead of his time, heh. Still amazes me that people don't recognize him as one of the very, very greatest fighters of all time, and probably the absolute best of the 90's nowadays.

People actually consider Bas Rutten (who I love as a fighter and is a far better person than Frank) a greater fighter, which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[electricsheep81]

The best part of that entire season of TUF was Ken and Tito's pool match.

Dude should have hung it up after the Rich Franklin fight.

 

[mkt]

People actually consider Bas Rutten (who I love as a fighter and is a far better person than Frank) a greater fighter, which is absolutely ridiculous.

The best thing Bas did was retire after the Randleman fight and only have one comeback fight against a guy he could beat (Warpath). Many legends are unfortunately remembered for a series of embarrassing losses at the end of their careers... when they're well past their primes. BJ Penn has surpassed Ken Shamrock as the best (or worst) example of this.

 

[chiefwiggum]

Ken Shamerock

I respect him as a fighter, but those last 6-7 years.. Whew

let’s be real here. The last 25 years.

 

[listrahtes]

BJ Penn has surpassed Ken Shamrock as the best (or worst) example of this.

Thats near impossible to surpass Ken. Penn has a bad bad loss streak but Kens losses are at least on par with pathetic quitting, straight out giving up and in general being a punching bag to every opponent with a pulse for now 15 years.

I agree Penns fall is even a little bigger as he was really at a time the most skilled MMA fighter of the world and Ken compensates via being a laughing stock far longer.

Two alltime greats in that discipline. Thats for sure.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Thats near impossible to surpass Ken. Penn has a bad bad loss streak but Kens losses are at least on par with pathetic quitting, straight out giving up and in general being a punching bag to every opponent with a pulse for now 15 years.

I agree Penns fall is even a little bigger as he was really at a time the most skilled MMA fighter of the world and Ken compensates via being a laughing stock far longer.

Two alltime greats in that discipline. Thats for sure.

Penn at least lost to decent/excellent opponents, and mostly via decision at that. Even now, Penn is capable of defeating sub-UFC talent.

Penn's losing streak isn't even worse than the losing streak that other faded lightweight legends, like Jens Pulver or Takanori Gomi have suffered.

Ken, by contrast, was destroyed by a bunch of complete bums. Being finished by 9-16 sad stiff Mike Bourke (himself 40 years old and way past his prime), demolished by the pathetic Robert Berry, or being KNOCKED OUT by the terrifying 50 year-old striker Royce Gracie, still much smaller than Ken, are absolute laughers.

 

[560ti]

Imo with Ken he cultivated an ego way above his real skill level and transcended that into all aspects of his life. Like you wrote in parts you have to do that to even step into the ring but Ken basically wanted to be a superhero and worshipped like that. He could never cope with looking at his weaknesses and thats why he did not evolve as a fighter or human at all.

When reality clashed in he started the lying to others and himself to the point of being a pathological liar out of habit. i am really amazed someone trusted him enough within the Valor Bare Knuckle Org. He better not fuck it up because I dont think he will get many more opportunities.

Agreed. LOL at "ken fears no one".

That's actually a problem. Ken's massive ego has caused his embarassing downfall (3 failing business's, doesn't own a house, body and mind breaking down, unstable work history).

 

[Velvet Hammer]

You respect him as a fighter after those last 6-7 years? He made an excuse for every time he got knocked down, was being pummeled and couldn't do anything. The Sakuraba one was particularly stupid, as Saku would've sent him to the same hell Tito's elbows did to him like 3 years later.

He's been complaining about UFC 1 for 25 years!!!

Ditto. I tried and tried to figure out why I should kiss Ken’s ass but I found no support material. I mean seriously, I’ve seen him win 3 times. Against nobodies. Except a garbage Freddie Mercury in a garbage fight. Ken fucking sucks. I think people are really thinking of Don Frye when Ken’s name pops up...cause Ken suuuuucks.

 

[TITANPREDATOR]

Old school fighter

 

[brentberger]

Of course, he is crazy.