Keith Owen shows Kimura from the Guard counter Video

[Wrestleben]

i don't know how high percentage this will be, it might be just something you can pull off on new/sucky guys that make them go "wtf?"

Like most submissions 101 moves.

 

[BSFT]

Like most submissions 101 moves.

i don't even think i could get a noob in that pentagram abomination.

 

[Hades666]

Well you can make it you go to kimura escape, but I think there are safer options. Also nothing prevents the guy from going to mount until you hip escape out and block him from coming on top by placing you leg on top.

i dont have go to moves, i have options, go learn jiu jitsu buddy

sorry im a rude mo fo but it is super annoying to seeing a bunch of blue and purples critiquing a legit black belt

write keith an email if you think the technique is crap

 

[Wrestleben]

i dont have go to moves, i have options, go learn jiu jitsu buddy

sorry im a rude mo fo but it is super annoying to seeing a bunch of blue and purples critiquing a legit black belt

write keith an email if you think the technique is crap

Just so you know you are criticizing one of the top BJJ blue belt light heavyweights in the USA. Have some respect, and learn some grammar.

 

[BSFT]

i dont have go to moves, i have options, go learn jiu jitsu buddy

so, your first option would be to try a low percentage sub and risk giving up the mount? :icon_neut

 

[Balto]

i dont have go to moves, i have options, go learn jiu jitsu buddy

sorry im a rude mo fo but it is super annoying to seeing a bunch of blue and purples critiquing a legit black belt

write keith an email if you think the technique is crap

The fact that he's a black belt doesn't make his technique beyond discussion. That's the point of this forum.

Good technique exists independently of belt rank. It needs to be debated and discussed so that it can be understood and adapted individually.

The reason why you can't use the rank argument is because I could turn around tonight and show it to other more "accomplished" black belts, and I guarantee they would not approve of it. However, then maybe you could turn around and get Roger Gracie to say he uses it all the time (not saying that he does, but just as an example).

Rather than playing whose instructor has a bigger dick to justify your techniques, justify them theoretically based on sound principles of BJJ. Those exist outside of all rank and are how things ought to be judged.

Once you get more experienced, you'll start to see how widely certain black belts differ in philosophy and technique. One will tell you one thing, and another one will tell you something completely opposite. The only way to make sense of it is to break it down to the principles and try to understand it fundamentally. Then you can make the right choice for yourself and grow your own BJJ.

 

[OrcishFighter]

i dont have go to moves, i have options, go learn jiu jitsu buddy

sorry im a rude mo fo but it is super annoying to seeing a bunch of blue and purples critiquing a legit black belt

write keith an email if you think the technique is crap

we dont have to like it even if its a black belt demonstrating ok ? this forum is here to do just that discuss techniques, nobody even hinted that Keith sucked or wasnt legit or anything like this so relax. If marcelo Garcia showed me some crazy catwheel pass that is super timing related id say the same thing.

 

[lechien]

T

Once you get more experienced, you'll start to see how widely certain black belts differ in philosophy and technique. One will tell you one thing, and another one will tell you something completely opposite. The only way to make sense of it is to break it down to the principles and try to understand it fundamentally. Then you can make the right choice for yourself and grow your own BJJ.

Well said.

 

[boisefireman]

I don't mind guys not liking the move or critizing it. Hell, I didn't like half the stuff I saw when I was a blue or white belt. As I got higher up and understood more I got more out of differant stuff. ( still not a fan of x guard)
I would only ask you listen to the instruction, it might take more than one listen, and try it out. Some of the critics are making points that Keith Answers in the video. IE the back can't be taking if you are laying pressure on the bottom guys leg. And saying no good before trying it on the mat, well that is a little egotisical. I think a good grappler physically tries it out and drills it atleast a few times before a thumbs down. The, by all means, give it your honest opinion. It doesn't hurt my feelings for people not liking it, but to say it won't work before you try, you might miss out on some good technique. Good day to you all.

 

[TalkShowOnMute]

I tried this out a few times on my buddy Ryan. Most likely this would not be used as a "go-to" escape. It is more of a surprise move IMO. If the bottom player is 100% focused and committed to locking up that kimura and you explosively roll to your side, block his far side knee (knee that would need to come over to take mount) with your hand as you shrimp back, as soon as you pass the legs you are safe. If you get entangled halfway, I was able to finish the armlock as he attempted to take mount/top-due entirely to the strange angle of the lock. you have a guy attempting to go on top, but his arm is under yours palm up and you have control of his wrist.

I believe in position over submission, as a surprise attack it can work for sure in the appropriate situation.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

Damn, your logic and reason are overwhelming...

I have a hard time learning from videos and books. If everyone is doing it (X,dlr,brabo) then I will study it in combination with my instructors. I do so many moves wrong with my coach watching. I can't imagine the mistakes I would be making if I tried to do a move like this.

I know that I know little. If KO says it is legit, I'll accept it on face value, but I won't be trying to work on it in my spare time.

The fact that he's a black belt doesn't make his technique beyond discussion. That's the point of this forum.

Good technique exists independently of belt rank. It needs to be debated and discussed so that it can be understood and adapted individually.

The reason why you can't use the rank argument is because I could turn around tonight and show it to other more "accomplished" black belts, and I guarantee they would not approve of it. However, then maybe you could turn around and get Roger Gracie to say he uses it all the time (not saying that he does, but just as an example).

Rather than playing whose instructor has a bigger dick to justify your techniques, justify them theoretically based on sound principles of BJJ. Those exist outside of all rank and are how things ought to be judged.

Once you get more experienced, you'll start to see how widely certain black belts differ in philosophy and technique. One will tell you one thing, and another one will tell you something completely opposite. The only way to make sense of it is to break it down to the principles and try to understand it fundamentally. Then you can make the right choice for yourself and grow your own BJJ.

 

[thegreenblender]

I can see it working. There are moves you aren't going to use every time, but you just throw them out there now and then to catch a guy off guard. This is one of them. This is exactly the kind of move that might end a close match where the guy seems to have an answer for your usual game, and then you go, "I wonder if he's seen this one...."

One thing that stuck with me when I first started:

One day we were drilling something and I voiced my doubt about the move or at least mentioned that I didn't think it would work for me. One of my instructors told me, agreeing it wasn't a "bread and butter" type move, "You might be going with a guy who is evenly matched with you in every way, and this could be the one move that puts you over the top." Since then, I don't purposely overlook any move I'm taught unless it's indisputably horseshit.

 

[Hades666]

The fact that he's a black belt doesn't make his technique beyond discussion. That's the point of this forum.

yeah ok

Good technique exists independently of belt rank. It needs to be debated and discussed so that it can be understood and adapted individually.

true belt is more representative of experience as i have heard plenty of stories purples tappin blacks

The reason why you can't use the rank argument is because I could turn around tonight and show it to other more "accomplished" black belts, and I guarantee they would not approve of it. However, then maybe you could turn around and get Roger Gracie to say he uses it all the time (not saying that he does, but just as an example).

the thing is they have more experience than us, over 10 years more experience, of course its not going to work perfectly if u guys were to try this but i bet you guys would be able to use this move if you practiced it for a good five years, u would probably be so good at this move u could actually start baiting people with the kimura to get this cuz your control has become so insane

Rather than playing whose instructor has a bigger dick to justify your techniques, justify them theoretically based on sound principles of BJJ. Those exist outside of all rank and are how things ought to be judged.

he's not my instructor, i just respect the guy, ok so when ko rolls to his side u all complain of getting mounted, well then u have to make a connection to your opponent so u feel his movements and use your weight accordingly, its not like u r dead when u get on your side, and trapping his leg with your also stops the mount, u wouldnt just get mounted if u played the position tight

(imo this is probably the biggest fundamental to want to have down, knowing how to connect to someone in all positions, big part of judo and ricksons invisible jiu jitsu)

Once you get more experienced, you'll start to see how widely certain black belts differ in philosophy and technique. One will tell you one thing, and another one will tell you something completely opposite. The only way to make sense of it is to break it down to the principles and try to understand it fundamentally. Then you can make the right choice for yourself and grow your own BJJ.

regardless of differnet blackbelts views which very well may be due to different body types, ur right maybe this isnt for everyone, but you guys complaining reminded me of when that bozo fitch said the closed guard is dead

u know why its dead fitch, cuz everyone is doing it wrong except for guys like maia, this move ko is showing can work if done correctly, might take years but this may be the 1 escape that works against certain people so why not know it

such negativity round here, and u talk to me like ive been training only a year or something

 

[Hades666]

I can see it working. There are moves you aren't going to use every time, but you just throw them out there now and then to catch a guy off guard. This is one of them. This is exactly the kind of move that might end a close match where the guy seems to have an answer for your usual game, and then you go, "I wonder if he's seen this one...."

One thing that stuck with me when I first started:

One day we were drilling something and I voiced my doubt about the move or at least mentioned that I didn't think it would work for me. One of my instructors told me, agreeing it wasn't a "bread and butter" type move, "You might be going with a guy who is evenly matched with you in every way, and this could be the one move that puts you over the top." Since then, I don't purposely overlook any move I'm taught unless it's indisputably horseshit.

wow i didnt even read your post and we pretty much said the same thing kudos to u sir

 

[mtruitt76]

u know why its dead fitch, cuz everyone is doing it wrong except for guys like maia, this move ko is showing can work if done correctly, might take years but this may be the 1 escape that works against certain people so why not know it

such negativity round here, and u talk to me like ive been training only a year or something

Personally I would not recommend spending years perfecting a low percentage move. Time is a limited resource. Learning to use it wisely will improve your BJJ.

 

[Breadcutter]

The technique isn't something I would ever do to defend a kimura against anybody, good or bad, but it's worth a discussion...on why not to do it. Just like rubber guard, it's a low percentage solution. Take it for what it is. There's a reason why higher level belts don't get caught in kimura's from the guard in the first place.....

 

[Balto]

yeah ok



true belt is more representative of experience as i have heard plenty of stories purples tappin blacks



the thing is they have more experience than us, over 10 years more experience, of course its not going to work perfectly if u guys were to try this but i bet you guys would be able to use this move if you practiced it for a good five years, u would probably be so good at this move u could actually start baiting people with the kimura to get this cuz your control has become so insane



he's not my instructor, i just respect the guy, ok so when ko rolls to his side u all complain of getting mounted, well then u have to make a connection to your opponent so u feel his movements and use your weight accordingly, its not like u r dead when u get on your side, and trapping his leg with your also stops the mount, u wouldnt just get mounted if u played the position tight

(imo this is probably the biggest fundamental to want to have down, knowing how to connect to someone in all positions, big part of judo and ricksons invisible jiu jitsu)



regardless of differnet blackbelts views which very well may be due to different body types, ur right maybe this isnt for everyone, but you guys complaining reminded me of when that bozo fitch said the closed guard is dead

u know why its dead fitch, cuz everyone is doing it wrong except for guys like maia, this move ko is showing can work if done correctly, might take years but this may be the 1 escape that works against certain people so why not know it

such negativity round here, and u talk to me like ive been training only a year or something

You're missing the point. Just because Keith Owen says to do it doesn't mean you should. Just look at the technique critically and evaluate it based on its principles. You can't just take a guy's word for something because he's a black belt.

If you want to keep going with the just take a black belt's word for it line of reasoning, I can guarantee you that there a lot of black belts with a lot more international medals than Keith Owen ever won who would not recommend training that particular counter. Does that mean I shouldn't even watch it? No, it just means that I need to evaluate the technique independently of the source based solely on its merits.

Honestly I don't even have a problem with the technique. I think it's fine as an occasional secondary option. I wouldn't use it as a primary option. I doubt it was even intended as such anyway.

 

[BSFT]

I believe in position over submission, as a surprise attack it can work for sure in the appropriate situation.

this is pretty much my thought. personally, i usually attack the kimura from guard for the sole purpose of sweeping to mount, so i'm going to be super focused on taking that position and bailing on the sub as soon as i need to, so i don't think it would be super effective on me, or a couple other guys i know. but, never say never, and it could work on the guy you described that is dead set on finishing that kimura.

 

[Hades666]

You're missing the point. Just because Keith Owen says to do it doesn't mean you should. Just look at the technique critically and evaluate it based on its principles. You can't just take a guy's word for something because he's a black belt.

If you want to keep going with the just take a black belt's word for it line of reasoning, I can guarantee you that there a lot of black belts with a lot more international medals than Keith Owen ever won who would not recommend training that particular counter. Does that mean I shouldn't even watch it? No, it just means that I need to evaluate the technique independently of the source based solely on its merits.

Honestly I don't even have a problem with the technique. I think it's fine as an occasional secondary option. I wouldn't use it as a primary option. I doubt it was even intended as such anyway.

yeah for sure its just like when ur mom told u if all the cool kids jumped off a cliff, would you? (oh and of course I said I would jump)

but yeah i look at the technique and thought when someone has a kimura already locked in the guard this very well could be a good last ditch effort, it's not like u r going to plan on doing this, u would only do this if u were in deep shit

"will the technique work? maybe, maybe not, but it may be the best chance you got" (i heard rickson say that, not word for word but along those lines)

Jiu Jitsu is not magic and just because you know how to escape something doesnt mean u will escape

 

[Hades666]

Personally I would not recommend spending years perfecting a low percentage move. Time is a limited resource. Learning to use it wisely will improve your BJJ.

agreed but i train alot, I MUST LEARN IT ALL!!!!!! maybe low percentage but it could save your life even if it to just escape and not get submission