Keenan vs. Lister
- Thread starter GKY
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wasn't there talk of them wanting to setup buchecha vs barnett?
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it wasn't so much the loss that's surprising, it's that he's been tapped twice in a row after going for years without being finished.
i don't think anyone really expects lister to dominate top competition anymore, he's been around for ages. it's just that he went from unfinishable to very human, really, really fast.
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The main problem with Lister's way of competing these days is that he seems to throw out the positional hierarchy of bjj. He gives up position, lets his guard get passed, etc...
No surprise he is submitted, he plays with fire. I agree you should "take chances" but you still have to respect the bjj way of doing things.
Lister should go back to some gi and ibjjf events ;-)
No surprise he is submitted, he plays with fire. I agree you should "take chances" but you still have to respect the bjj way of doing things.
Lister should go back to some gi and ibjjf events ;-)
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It's really hard to drink heavily and perform at a high level.
With leg locks and brutish strength and good defence he could get away with it for a while.
But you have to be in much better shape to impose the fight and establish positional dominance rather then catch a leg lock.
With leg locks and brutish strength and good defence he could get away with it for a while.
But you have to be in much better shape to impose the fight and establish positional dominance rather then catch a leg lock.
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Does he have much of an IBJJF/BJJ gi background? I know he was a sambo national champ, i don't know of any IBJJF stuff. Most of his success seemed to come off of foot locks in no-gi.
I posted earlier, but again, Keenan was prepping for a gi match. He said he did no no-gi leading up to this. I think that is the bigger story than trying to downplay Lister. Keenan is amazing!
Keenan IS amazing, sure!
I don't want to downplay Lister because he is an all time great and has a unique game but he is too much keeping it playful in sub-only and his only hopes are to go to catch a leg, even if he has the top position. Sure it can work but he should not be put in these horrible situations like he was in this match, or the Barnett and Xande ones. He rolls like he is the always bigger, stronger and better practitioner. He might be in his gym but not when he is facing the elite.
I think he should get more interested in defending his positions and his guard. It's a dangerous game to bait on subs to get subs or positions.
He would benefit, IMO, to compete in tournaments where leg locks aren't as much possible and where he has points to take in consideration.
But still, I'm a fan of Lister and I love leg locks but hey... just an opinion, lister would demolish me by whatever he wants!
I don't want to downplay Lister because he is an all time great and has a unique game but he is too much keeping it playful in sub-only and his only hopes are to go to catch a leg, even if he has the top position. Sure it can work but he should not be put in these horrible situations like he was in this match, or the Barnett and Xande ones. He rolls like he is the always bigger, stronger and better practitioner. He might be in his gym but not when he is facing the elite.
I think he should get more interested in defending his positions and his guard. It's a dangerous game to bait on subs to get subs or positions.
He would benefit, IMO, to compete in tournaments where leg locks aren't as much possible and where he has points to take in consideration.
But still, I'm a fan of Lister and I love leg locks but hey... just an opinion, lister would demolish me by whatever he wants!
I get where Zankou is coming from though.
When I was 20, I used to think it was awesome to be a devilishly intriguing modern day martial arts master.
Now that I'm pushing on 30, it feels like a burden. Look ladies, I know your hands are cold, okay? You don't have to keep "proving it to me" every time by feeling up my rock hard abs. I am a human being, not a piece of meat.
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"I am NOT that type of grappler"
I mean god, they buy you one drink and then think they're entitled to a private shrimping demonstration. Am I right!
The Cardinal
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Watch again... His corner (Andre) told him to let go of the arm. Keenan nods and sits up into the triangle, 2 secs later Lister taps. Great coaching, great listening, another reason Keenan is so dominant.
Lots of people are saying it was expected but I'm not so sure it was. Granted Keenan dominating and putting Lister in various submissions is expected but him actually finishing, with a reverse triangle no less, is extremely impressive. Half of Lister's game is escaping submissions. Remember Xandle's armbar?
Maybe he's not in his prime anymore and his cardio isn't there, but it took Josh almost 20 minutes to hit a submission in a match he largely spent in top side control. Plus he was training for a no gi match, whereas Keenan was training for a gi match.
It's hard to believe Keenan is this good when he's only 22.
Maybe he's not in his prime anymore and his cardio isn't there, but it took Josh almost 20 minutes to hit a submission in a match he largely spent in top side control. Plus he was training for a no gi match, whereas Keenan was training for a gi match.
It's hard to believe Keenan is this good when he's only 22.
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its not that dean wasnt monster, its just that a guy like barnett is the worst kind of matchup for his style. like it or not there are alot of point fighters in the contemporary grappling circuit, and i dare say for alot of them it comes at the expense of training time on finishes. the training strategy for a guy like lister is, hes not so worried about how good your sweeping and passing is, because hes confident that you cant finish him in any case, and theres always gona be a leg open to grab. then with a guy like barnett, who probably spends more time working on pinning and finishing, would then probably be at more of a disadvantage in competition against point fighters. but against a listerlike its a big mismatch, since he had pretty much free reign to inflict punishment.
as for keenan, best way to classify him is 'wizard'.
as for keenan, best way to classify him is 'wizard'.
I agree.
To me, at best, keep it playful- sub only guys allow horrible position in hopes of a hail Mary submission. Gary Tonnen and Lister are good examples.
Most times though, one guy see's he's in over his head and plays pure defense, trying to get the draw- if you don't lose, you win.
I know that the ibjjf points game can be "gamed" like anything else but at least a guy has to defend basic bjj positioning or he's going to lose. It's often the defense of these positions that opens up submission. Take away motivation to defend position and alot of submission opportunity disappears.
