Katsunori Kikuno Preparing for UFC 173 (Sexyama Cameo)

[Redhawks100]

You're right, but I said that more to address the implication all fighters with poor boxing form are gonna get knocked out, which isn't true.

The fact that one can justifiably call themselves a karateka while exhibiting a totally different style from another karateka bears interesting discussion, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Regardless, even the lone KO loss on Machida's record stems not from poor head movement or his decidedly upright posture, but rather, a strategic mistake in lurking inside Shogun's punching range after nailing him with his infamous left knee strike, as opposed to angling out to re-establish range as he does after attacking about 90% of the time.

I feel as though, when it comes to hand position and knockouts, almost everyone doesn't see the forest for the trees. Like, Joe Rogan acting as if Silva got KO'd for low hands, when in reality he got KO'd for being drawn out and countered by Weidman (even if Anderson would most likely never underestimate Weidman that badly again, but still).

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've seen on Sherdog. Good job.

Shogun countered Machida's left straight (that didn't do shit to Shogun) with a right hand, hitting him square on the temple, put him down, and destroyed him in full mount. This was after Shogun had already made Machida look like shit on the feet in their 1st fight. Shogun landed a great shot after figuring out Machida.

Anderson used horrible technique to attempt to slip strikes from a much younger fighter. Look at his footwork/placement and disregard for Weidman's range, he basically pulled some amateur shit off against the wrong guy. Weidman threw a combo after looking like a deer caught in the headlights and capitalized off of Silva's noticeably (and oddly) poor technique. It's no surprise to see a 38 year old man with a shitton of fight mileage get knocked out while trying to slip a combo from a much younger and athletic fighter.

 

[Jukai]

This is one of the most idiotic posts I've seen on Sherdog. Good job.

Shogun countered Machida's left straight (that didn't do shit to Shogun) with a right hand, hitting him square on the temple, put him down, and destroyed him in full mount. This was after Shogun had already made Machida look like shit on the feet in their 1st fight. Shogun landed a great shot after figuring out Machida.

Anderson used horrible technique to attempt to slip strikes from a much younger fighter. Look at his footwork/placement and disregard for Weidman's range, he basically pulled some amateur shit off against the wrong guy. Weidman threw a combo after looking like a deer caught in the headlights and capitalized off of Silva's noticeably (and oddly) poor technique. It's no surprise to see a 38 year old man with a shitton of fight mileage get knocked out while trying to slip a combo from a much younger and athletic fighter.

And uh, how did your post differ from what Steve08 said?

 

[Redhawks100]

And uh, how did your post differ from what Steve08 said?

Uh, he completely downplays Machida's loss as if he just made a mistake and basically beat himself when Shogun had Machida completely figured out and walloped him with ease in the 1st.

Then tries to make Anderson/Weidman out as a complete outclassing by Weidman when it was an example of a fighter being too complacent against a dangerous opponent

 

[Jukai]

Uh, he completely downplays Machida's loss as if he just made a mistake and basically beat himself when Shogun had Machida completely figured out and walloped him with ease in the 1st.

Then tries to make Anderson/Weidman out as a complete outclassing by Weidman when it was an example of a fighter being too complacent against a dangerous opponent

His point was that it wasn't Lyoto/Anderson's hand position that got them knocked out, and he's right. Machida ate an overhand coming in, Anderson wasn't expecting Weidman to double up on his right hand and leaned right into a hook.

And Weidman did completely outclass Silva. Twice.

 

[Redhawks100]

His point was that it wasn't Lyoto/Anderson's hand position that got them knocked out, and he's right. Machida ate an overhand coming in, Anderson wasn't expecting Weidman to double up on his right hand and leaned right into a hook.

Anderson was fucked in the first place from his very poor foot placement. And yes it was Lyoto's hand position that got him knocked out. He threw a left straight with his chin up which was easily countered.

 

[Redhawks100]

Completely outclassed? No, completely outclassed is Jones/Shogun and Shogun/Sonnen.

 

[Big Al's Texas BBQ]

Anderson was fucked in the first place from his very poor foot placement. And yes it was Lyoto's hand position that got him knocked out. He threw a left straight with his chin up which was easily countered.

But getting knocked out once by a good striker doesn't discredit the effectiveness of Machida's low-hands karate style. Gunnar Nelson, Horiguchi, and Scoggins all use a similar style and have had great success.

 

[Jukai]

Anderson was fucked in the first place from his very poor foot placement. And yes it was Lyoto's hand position that got him knocked out. He threw a left straight with his chin up which was easily countered.

Shogun threw an overhand over Lyoto's punch that hit him in the temple. Chin up or chin down, Lyoto was gonna be dropped. And it was his punching hand, hand up or hand down is irrelevant.

I do agree that poor foot placement was what got Anderson KO'd, squaring up and leaning back is not a good way to each a punch. Alas, he had to resort to that because he was being taken down at will and had to jut his chin out to Weidman would stand up and box.

 

[Redhawks100]

But getting knocked out once by a good striker doesn't discredit the effectiveness of Machida's low-hands karate style. Gunnar Nelson, Horiguchi, and Scoggins all use a similar style and have had great success.

Similar style doesn't mean similar defense though. Machida was also dropped by Jones for his low-hands style. We'll have to see all three of those men up against better competition to make that judgement.

 

[Big Al's Texas BBQ]

Similar style doesn't mean similar defense though. Machida was also dropped by Jones for his low-hands style. We'll have to see all three of those men up against better competition to make that judgement.

I'd say Machida got dropped because Jones has underrated striking. To say it was because of his low-hands style discredits the art unfairly.

 

[Steve08]

Kyokushin is much different, their stance is squared like a Thai fighter and they get in close and beat people up. So 'hands low, chin up' is worse if you're a Kyokushinka because the range is so different.

I see. Do you know which of those idioms Horiguchi or Gunnar Nelson fit into, by any chance?

Gotta say Kikuno's stance reminds me of Andy Hug's as well, though I'm not sure if Hug was atypical for Kyokushin, and obviously he had to work on his boxing a fair bit as well...

Also, what can you tell me about Kempo, which is apparently what Stephen Thompson's background is in?

 

[Big Al's Texas BBQ]

I see. Do you know which of those idioms Horiguchi or Gunnar Nelson fit into, by any chance?

Gotta say Kikuno's stance reminds me of Andy Hug's as well, though I'm not sure if Hug is atypical for Kyokushin, and obviously he had to work on his boxing a fair bit as well...

Also, what can you tell me about Kempo, which is apparently what Stephen Thompson's background is in?

Horiguchi said his style is sports karate, which looks a lot like the straight-in-and-out shotokan style. Gunnar's style looks similar.

 

[Steve08]

Horiguchi said his style is sports karate, which looks a lot like the straight-in-and-out shotokan style. Gunnar's style looks similar.

yeah, that's the impression that I got as well, but I don't really know too much about karate unfortunately.

It is certainly more effective than people realize, but the fact that a lot of dojos literally do not spar, and a lot of competition ends up basically looking like a joke doesn't exactly help its reputation. I've seen WKF matches that appeared to be a glorified game of tag.

 

[LordBarnaby**]

Wow, Akiyama is actually white for once instead of orange. He must be serious about his training now.

 

[Big Al's Texas BBQ]

yeah, that's the impression that I got as well, but I don't really know too much about karate unfortunately.

It is certainly more effective than people realize, but the fact that a lot of dojos literally do not spar, and a lot of competition ends up basically looking like a joke doesn't exactly help its reputation.

Legit karate is pretty hardcore:

 

[Steve08]

Legit karate is pretty hardcore:

oh, yeah, I have a lot of respect for actual contact karate. It's just the point-sparring shit which is hard to watch and really quite unrealistic beyond that.

 

[Jukai]

I see. Do you know which of those idioms Horiguchi or Gunnar Nelson fit into, by any chance?

Gotta say Kikuno's stance reminds me of Andy Hug's as well, though I'm not sure if Hug was atypical for Kyokushin, and obviously he had to work on his boxing a fair bit as well...

Also, what can you tell me about Kempo, which is apparently what Stephen Thompson's background is in?

Gunnar's style of Karate is Goju, which is confusing, because there is really two different "styles" of Goju. One is called "Okinawan Goju" which actually isn't Okinawan per se, but people call it this because it has kept its close-ranged, hard nosed roots. The person who created Kyokushin, Mas Oyama, was actually a 7th degree black belt in this style of Goju. Neil Grove used his hardnosed style of Goju.

Yet on the flip side, thanks to the unification of Shotokan, Goju, Wado, and Shito under the WKF, newer schools of Goju-Ryu have really lost their identity. Shoto, Wado and Shito are all "Shorin" styles of Karate, meaning their lineage can be traced back to the Shuri region of Okinawa where Chinese Kung Fu masters came and cross trained with the local populace. Goju-Ryu is a shorei style, meaning it came from the naha region of Okinawa, which largely had different types of Chinese travels with different kinds of Kung Fu. Yet, because Goju-Ryu was accepted into the WKF, they were intoduced to the WKF's Shotokan-style ruleset. These schools began training for this Shotokan style ruleset, and now these schools look MUCH more like Shotokan with different Kata and slightly difference stane mechanics. Gunnar comes from these schools.

I have no idea what style Kyoji Horiguchi, his father had his own school of Karate and called it "Horiguchi Karate" and he refers to it as sport Karate and said it was mostly non-contact. It's likely a JKA or WKF variant, so he is also very similar to a Shotokan practitioner.

And yes, Andy is a lot more similar to Katsunori. They trained the same art.

As for Stephen Thompson and Kenpo, that's hard to answer because Kenpo is hard to identify in itself. A guy named James Mitose created it and its original lineage was very similar to Okinawan styles of martial arts... but William Chow and Ed Parker altered it so much with boxing and Chinese Kung Fu principles, it's hard to classify it. It depends on the lineage--- closer to James Mitose, it looks very much like Karate. Past Ed Parker, it gets real Kung Fu-ish.

 

[Steve08]

Shogun countered Machida's left straight (that didn't do shit to Shogun) with a right hand

When have you EVER seen Machida hang out in range trying to land his own shit boxing-style? He is not meant to exchange punches. Yes, Shogun hit a chance cross counter off Machida's left straight, but the fact that Machida even struck from that position to begin with was baffling, because it prerequisites good head movement which he just doesn't have.

Anderson used horrible technique to attempt to slip strikes from a much younger fighter.

Yes, he placed himself in a horrible position with his feet square and weight backward, but the fact remains that Weidman saw that Silva would only move his head in alternating fashion (because 1-2-3-2-3-2-3 etc. combinations are very common in mma), and capitalized on this simply by throwing that ugly backhand, because he knew it would draw the head movement that Silva always uses to defend a left hook, for the reason that his backhand traveled in the same direction that a left hook would, and from there he simply threw his actual left hook and Silva was done for. It's almost as if Weidman threw two left hooks (e.g. 1-2-3-3, which is a very simple combo yet also one Silva never had to deal with in any of his fights AFAIK), and the second one is what dropped Silva.

So basically, Chris tricked him into using the wrong head movement then knocked him out. It would never happen again because Silva clearly underestimated him, but it did happen.

 

[Steve08]

Yet, because Goju-Ryu was accepted into the WKF, they were intoduced to the WKF's Shotokan-style ruleset. These schools began training for this Shotokan style ruleset, and now these schools look MUCH more like Shotokan with different Kata and slightly difference stane mechanics. Gunnar comes from these schools.

I have no idea what style Kyoji Horiguchi, his father had his own school of Karate and called it "Horiguchi Karate" and he refers to it as sport Karate and said it was mostly non-contact. It's likely a JKA or WKF variant, so he is also very similar to a Shotokan practitioner.

As for Stephen Thompson and Kenpo, that's hard to answer because Kenpo is hard to identify in itself [...] it depends on the lineage--- closer to James Mitose, it looks very much like Karate. Past Ed Parker, it gets real Kung Fu-ish.

This is fascinating stuff. Thank you for the detailed response.

Do you train karate? Also, is all Shotokan non-contact? In which case, how exactly do you go about scoring points...?

 

[Jukai]

This is fascinating stuff. Thank you for the detailed response.

Do you train karate? Also, is all Shotokan non-contact? In which case, how exactly do you go about scoring points...?

I've actually trained all three, although Kenpo when I was a kid and I don't remember much of anything about it.

Shotokan is minimum contact. I did both JKA and WKF tournaments, and although JKA probably breeds the better fighters just due to its format, I eventually focused on WKF because the rules are more fun (I also competed in a few NBL-format tournaments but those sucked hard, imo).
To score points, you need to make what my sensei would call "skin contact" as in make contact with your opponent but not go THROUGH your opponent. Because everytime you get hit is a point, it breeds fighters that have EXCELLENT timing and distance, because you CANNOT GET HIT.
Here is Machida competing in Karate: