karo's ground game/submission game

[devante]

Is karo's game really one of the best in the mma in regards to grappling, i.e. subs/ground control; i know his standup grappling/def/counters/throws are excellent. But how good is his actual ground game; i have not really seen him be particular impressive in that aspect, as far as def and scrambling. But actually controlling an opp and finishing not so much.

My perception of his grappling and success w/submission would be his ability to eff control the place and pace of the fights via his throws; basically allowing him to apply the subs in trasition off a throw or a takedown.

i have not seen or know of people who have seen him be on the ground extensively, so i was curious if anyone really knew just how good his game was outside of his obviously familiarty and knowledge of submissions.

 

[Miamiac]

His ground game seemed to fair pretty well against Diego Sanchez and Nick Diaz

 

[sugarboyae]

judo's ground game is diff than bjj... you're less willing to suck ppl into guard and you're more about forcing offensive positions and actualy holding ppl in place...

its instinct especially for judo players who love the hold downs.

there was a thread a little bit ago that talked about the distinct habits of bjj vs judo expressed thru MMA.

 

[devante]

given that diaz is one of the weakest grapplers, i.e. phys strength; being able to hold him down and def subs does not impress me given karo's familiarity w/grappling as a whole, i would not think he would have to be spectacular on the ground to neutralize diaz on the ground.

thought sanchez was unable to finish, he put him in alot of positions and was able to eff neutralize karo's ground control and submission work... karo was nowhere near close to being able to eff transition into a sub or put sanchez down and apply them.

 

[knoxpk]

its all relative devante.

for MMA puyrposes I would say his ground game is pretty damned stout.
He has good control, can fight off his back, has serious g n p and I havent eseen him sub'd and he has faced Serra and Diaz.


If you are asking would he win ADCC well I would have to say no.

But would I say that he not only holds own against other grapplers he more often than not actually does much better than the others in a MMA bout.

Lets not confuse sprt grappling with MMA grappling. Karo is VERY good in MMA grappling.

 

[EmeklioCrocough]

Some people have different games in grappling, especially judo. I am a type of judoka that ignores hold downs, and goes straight for the chokes and arm locks. Some guys are all about passing the guard, getting control, holding a guy there and controlling them. I think Karo is one of those guys, that doesn't exactly look and wait on a submission. He will take it, if it presents itself. I think he is good on the ground, just a different style, and mindset.

 

[TsukinoKage]

Everyone's comments have been accurate. In the big picture, Karo isn't a top grappler. But in the context of MMA, he has the skills to succeed and be competitive against the Top 10 in his weight class.

Relative to everyone else, Karo's ground game is average to good for a primary grappler. He definitely fits into the prototypical Judo/Sambo specialist: great in the clinch, good takedowns and throws, and substantial ground control, but rough or a bit unrefined submission skills. In the overall grappling spectrum, he's inbetween a Wrestler and BJJer.

Just like other Judoka (Fedor for example), his overall grappling is good, but his sub game is very basic. Generally, this means getting the odd Kimura or armbar against wrestlers or boxers, but you aren't going to be choking out BJ Penn.

This isn't bad at all, because especially in MMA where you have to be well-rounded, his guard isn't super technical like Nogueira or Aoki, but it gets the job done by being better than non-BJJ specialists, and being substantial enough to avoid submissions against the top BJJers. There's a very important secondary factor to take as a whole: Judoka develop extremely strong hips, which translates into power on the ground and on the feet.

This leads winning fights for Karo, that are exciting because of his aggressive standup and Judo throws, but not many finishes because the technical aspect is rough in both submissions and striking. Recently, Karo has opted to improve and focus on his standup. He could very well go the other direction and work on his BJJ, but the net result would still be a better overall fighter.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

Karo's td defense is phenomenal. His ground game is top notch too. Not only is he a judoka, but also a Samboist, and submission wrestler. He's the example as to why Judo is so effective if done the way it was originally intended. With a devastating throw and top control, the ground game is much different.

 

[EmeklioCrocough]

Kage I agree with all that. +1

 

[devante]

Everyone's comments have been accurate. In the big picture, Karo isn't a top grappler. But in the context of MMA, he has the skills to succeed and be competitive against the Top 10 in his weight class.

Relative to everyone else, Karo's ground game is average to good for a primary grappler. He definitely fits into the prototypical Judo/Sambo specialist: great in the clinch, good takedowns and throws, and substantial ground control, but rough or a bit unrefined submission skills. In the overall grappling spectrum, he's inbetween a Wrestler and BJJer.

Just like other Judoka (Fedor for example), his overall grappling is good, but his sub game is very basic. Generally, this means getting the odd Kimura or armbar against wrestlers or boxers, but you aren't going to be choking out BJ Penn.

This isn't bad at all, because especially in MMA where you have to be well-rounded, his guard isn't super technical like Nogueira or Aoki, but it gets the job done by being better than non-BJJ specialists, and being substantial enough to avoid submissions against the top BJJers. There's a very important secondary factor to take as a whole: Judoka develop extremely strong hips, which translates into power on the ground and on the feet.

This leads winning fights for Karo, that are exciting because of his aggressive standup and Judo throws, but not many finishes because the technical aspect is rough in both submissions and striking. Recently, Karo has opted to improve and focus on his standup. He could very well go the other direction and work on his BJJ, but the net result would still be a better overall fighter.

thanks i really appreciate this post

 

[Plissken]

Working with Gene and Gokor it is highly likly he has a good deal of catch knowledge and ability to compliment his old school judo knowledge and ability.