Karate Combat lessons after 4 years

[JohnPJones]

So KC has now had 2 kyokushin fighters in the promotion, and I don’t think in the 3 fights between them have resulted in a win against shotokan and wado ryu based fighters.

So is there a lesson we can learn from that?
Any other lessons specifically related to karate we can learn?

While I still don’t like point fighting as an end goal for karateka, it seems it doesn’t take that much to transition from light contact to full contact, and that a heavy focus on body hardening reaches its point of diminishing returns very quickly.

 

[MilkManUK]

The rules dictate the fight - there's no low kicks (as in thigh kicks) in Karate Combat is there?

 

[JohnPJones]

The rules dictate the fight - there's no low kicks (as in thigh kicks) in Karate Combat is there?

No thigh kicks, but that doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me.

I think their obsession with beating the ever loving shit out of their bodies has very limited use that ends fairly quickly.
They haven’t been able to tough it out for a win via TKO where their opponents crumple under just too much pain from too many shots.

Before this second fight I would have assumed adjusting to head punches and calf kicks would have been easier than adjusting for full contact from point fighting.

 

[Monte Moku]

No thigh kicks, but that doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me.

I think their obsession with beating the ever loving shit out of their bodies has very limited use that ends fairly quickly.
They haven’t been able to tough it out for a win via TKO where their opponents crumple under just too much pain from too many shots.

Before this second fight I would have assumed adjusting to head punches and calf kicks would have been easier than adjusting for full contact from point fighting.

Did they give an explanation as to why there are no low kicks? I get wanting to have a unique ruleset to establish the brand, but at this point low kicks are ubiquitous in most full-contact striking sports.

 

[KOcounter]

Did they give an explanation as to why there are no low kicks? I get wanting to have a unique ruleset to establish the brand, but at this point low kicks are ubiquitous in most full-contact striking sports.

Not sure about the official explanation. It seems to me that They have modelled the rules partially around a fairly vanilla Japanese view of "traditional" karate heavily influenced by shotokan based sport karate, which sees karate as defined by long distance fighting and blitzing in. Under this depiction karate isn't really about elbows, knees, clinching or leg kicks, which are seen as "Muay Thai" or "kickboxing" things, but punches, kicks, sweeps and the odd throw.

So why allow calf kicks you might ask? Well they seem to be full contact combat sport fans and know the usaul dismissal they would get in basically recreating something similar to above the waist rules by a vocal segment of the mma and KB fan base. Allowing calf kicks is a medium of sort that partly lessens this and fits into the shotokan image of targeting the foot and ankle/calf area with sweeps (which sometimes blur into kicking territory).

Basically they seem to view calf kicks as part of the conclusion of their more hardcore vision of WKF like rules, with the latter's approval of sweeps below the knee transmorphing to include kicks to the area as well but not allowing thigh kicks for uniqueness and because they fit their view of karate less.

 

[MilkManUK]

No thigh kicks, but that doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me.

I think their obsession with beating the ever loving shit out of their bodies has very limited use that ends fairly quickly.
They haven’t been able to tough it out for a win via TKO where their opponents crumple under just too much pain from too many shots.

Before this second fight I would have assumed adjusting to head punches and calf kicks would have been easier than adjusting for full contact from point fighting.

I think the inclusion of thigh kicks would absolutely be a big deal, and you would likely see the Kyokushin guys fare better if allowed to use them, but I get why they haven't included them.

 

[JohnPJones]

Did they give an explanation as to why there are no low kicks? I get wanting to have a unique ruleset to establish the brand, but at this point low kicks are ubiquitous in most full-contact striking sports.

I don’t think they’ve ever said but some say KC was intended to closely mirror WKF point fighting rules, but just for full contact. Long hooks-ridge hands, calf kicks- sweeps, etc.

 

[JohnPJones]

I think the inclusion of thigh kicks would absolutely be a big deal, and you would likely see the Kyokushin guys fare better if allowed to use them, but I get why they haven't included them.

Idk, I don’t think it would make that big of a difference

 

[Vergilius]

So KC has now had 2 kyokushin fighters in the promotion, and I don’t think in the 3 fights between them have resulted in a win against shotokan and wado ryu based fighters.

So is there a lesson we can learn from that?
Any other lessons specifically related to karate we can learn?

While I still don’t like point fighting as an end goal for karateka, it seems it doesn’t take that much to transition from light contact to full contact, and that a heavy focus on body hardening reaches its point of diminishing returns very quickly.

It's hard to draw conclusions from such a small sample base, but in my own experience as shotokan trained and sparring with kyukoshin, they start off in a narrower stance protecting the body well but leaving the head completely open because they are not used to having to defend it. Mind you, I've only trained with a couple of kyukoshin fighters, and those guys were super tough and hardened, but I could basically just pop out my front hand and automatically hit them for the first handful of sessions.

 

[JohnPJones]

It's hard to draw conclusions from such a small sample base, but in my own experience as shotokan trained and sparring with kyukoshin, they start off in a narrower stance protecting the body well but leaving the head completely open because they are not used to having to defend it. Mind you, I've only trained with a couple of kyukoshin fighters, and those guys were super tough and hardened, but I could basically just pop out my front hand and automatically hit them for the first handful of sessions.

I agree the sample size is very small, but I do think it’s enough to show that KK doesn’t inherently produce fighters more capable in full contact.

 

[Tayski]

I agree the sample size is very small, but I do think it’s enough to show that KK doesn’t inherently produce fighters more capable in full contact.

Then you should check out the old K-1 events or even kickboxing today and look at how many successful Kyokushin fighters there's been there versus Shotokan and other of the traditional styles.

 

[JohnPJones]

Then you should check out the old K-1 events or even kickboxing today and look at how many successful Kyokushin fighters there's been there versus Shotokan and other of the traditional styles.

Is that due to better training or lack of participation?
Your thesis needs some better parameters before a determination can be made.

 

[KOcounter]

I agree the sample size is very small, but I do think it’s enough to show that KK doesn’t inherently produce fighters more capable in full contact.

Kyokushin has a very good track record when it comes to translation to k1 kickboxing with cross training or adaption, way more so than shotokan, wado etc.

In MMA its much closer. Regardless of who has the edge more fighters stand out at the top level as shotokan like stylists than kyokushin like stylists. There are a few possible reasons for this, some may argue that the smaller gloves, takedown precense etc. In mma and karate combat make shotokanised karate more effective with its movement and its greater focus on precise single shots and long, deeper stance

Basically under this argument the more trading elements of knockdown karate translate much better into k1 rules with the larger gloves and different dynamics. The theat of takedowns and the longer stances people stand in to thrawt said takedowns makes it harder to punish the vulnerable elements of the shotokan based wkf style.

However I also think part of the reason kyokushin guys register less is because they don't fit some peoples image of karate and some of the ones who cross train stand out less from a more kickboxing based style than a shotokan style, which is a style that really focuses on some things at the expense of others and looks aesthetically quite distinct in its stance and movement.

There are more kyokushin trained guys in MMA than some people may think tho. Whether they count as having a strong kyokushin base in their current fighting style depends on how you define kyokushin.

Personally I still think there's quite a lot of distinct stuff clearly visibly kyokushin (rather than more universal) that gives an edge in certain areas to practitioners with kk bases in k1 and mma. This is particularly apparent in kickboxing,but you see it in MMA too.

Even Gsp, arguably the mma goat has a kyokushin base and it shows up more than people seem to think in his, admittedly more mma striking based, game. You'll see him kick with kyokushin form on numerous occasions for instance.

 

[KOcounter]

I agree the sample size is very small, but I do think it’s enough to show that KK doesn’t inherently produce fighters more capable in full contact.

I should say that Knockdown rules have their drawbacks and their positives. Kyokushin as an art is very eclectic in theory but only so much generally gets used due to knockdown. A kyokushin fighter is still going to be able to handle themselves and have fun actually hitting someone without the same copious amount of brain damage. On the other hand their knowledge of head punching in sparring and their boxing to the head is generally considerably below that of a nak Muay, boxer, kickboxer etc.

With that said more kyokushin dojos that are still pretty classical will do the occasional head punch sparring, even if controlled, even if its done only once in a while from what I've heard, more so than in the past. A experienced kyokushin guy in the past who only did knockdown would still be considerably above most fighting wise but one who did the occasional did spar outside knockdown would be closer, even tho still below, a boxer, nak Muay in terms of dealing with punches up top.

Still I think even kyokushin guys that don't have much experience of kb sparring have been able to adapt well with time through adaption or cross training to full contact rule sets with head punches.

Personally I think there's a decent chance kyokushin can have similar potential in MMA and mma inspired rulesets like karate combat with a decent amount of cross over and good transfer. The lack of thigh kicks and knees do hobble it a little in karate combat however.

 

[SandisLL]

Even Gsp, arguably the mma goat has a kyokushin base and it shows up lore than people seem to think in his, admittedly more mma striking based, game. You'll see him kick with kyokushin form on numerous occasions.

MMA guys with high achievements usually are cross trained. GSP first base was KK and then he learned wrestling, BJJ and boxing, he also had sparred with kickboxers and different styles karatekas etc.
The same Fedor too was cross trained, more than this: had competed in judo, sport sambo and combat sambo before turned into MMA type fighter. Had also paid to boxers, KBers to spar with him.

 

[SandisLL]

Karate combat too does have at least some cross trained lads.
More than this: at least one from them had MMA fights under belt.

It is relatively difficult to tell how much their primary style had impacted their performance.
The same also about TMA guys competing in kickboxing.
Guys who compete in full contact usually aren't fanatics with approach: only one style is usable. Usually they spar and train with lads from other styles, KBers, MT guys etc.

 

[Tayski]

Is that due to better training or lack of participation?
Your thesis needs some better parameters before a determination can be made.

Says the guy who started a theory based on 2 fighters from Karate Combat. The irony.

 

[Woldog]

Says the guy who started a theory based on 2 fighters from Karate Combat. The irony.

 

[SandisLL]

Says the guy who started a theory based on 2 fighters from Karate Combat. The irony.

If talking about fundament as one style?
I do not have intent to follow Karate Combat or discuss about karate styles in manner style vs style.
If this is the same Karate Combat, then one from fighters does have such sherdog profile
Edgars "The Bearslayer" Skrivers MMA Stats, Pictures, News, Videos, Biography - Sherdog.com
Like this. And then after this guess that here had been 0 cross training?
I do not have deep interest about him or karate combat, last time I had saw him he pretty decently had sparred with lad who had approx 150 am KB fights under belt and now is 10-0-0 pro boxer.

I don't have enough deep interest about this Karate Combat.

Interestingly might be to see The Master doing on this stuff his death craft.

 

[JohnPJones]

Says the guy who started a theory based on 2 fighters from Karate Combat. The irony.

I’m not saying participation is what makes KK worse, you said look at the number of shotokan karateka in kickboxing. The numbers don’t matter what matters is how those who participate fair.