Justin Bieber of Shooting Vids!

[Roaming East]

Most current instructors that I've seen, many that are decorated sof veterans teach that technique and shit on magwell grip.

Most instructors dont teach actual marksmanship either. They teach 'contact drills' (mall ninja speak for CQB) because its easier to teach, quicker to learn, looks cool, and is 'modern'. Magwell grip IS less effective at rapidly shooting single targets at point blank range because its recoil management isnt as good. But shooting targets at up to 300 yards or further? its significantly better than wrist over grip. almost all forms of unsupported markmans ship drills generally have the offhand grip close to the balance point of the rifle....cause that is where its inherently stable. Its only when RAWR SHOOT FAST THE TARGET IS RIGHT THERE GO GO GO GO competition shooting became popular that you saw goofy extended grip shit taking off. Which is cool, but in actual real world fighting rifle setups actually being used by actual people shooting actual bullets into actual assholes, the vert grip, if used, is again, near the center of the point of balance on the rifle, within a few inches of the magwell.

Wrist over isnt a stupid grip. its just a competition grip. the problem is competitive shooters thinking its a tactical or combat shooting style. the sitting position is an awesome position for long range accuracy but nobody is claiming it as a 'combat' position as far as i know either.

 

[JohnPJones]

Most instructors dont teach actual marksmanship either. They teach 'contact drills' (mall ninja speak for CQB) because its easier to teach, quicker to learn, looks cool, and is 'modern'. Magwell grip IS less effective at rapidly shooting single targets at point blank range because its recoil management isnt as good. But shooting targets at up to 300 yards or further? its significantly better than wrist over grip. almost all forms of unsupported markmans ship drills generally have the offhand grip close to the balance point of the rifle....cause that is where its inherently stable. Its only when RAWR SHOOT FAST THE TARGET IS RIGHT THERE GO GO GO GO competition shooting became popular that you saw goofy extended grip shit taking off. Which is cool, but in actual real world fighting rifle setups actually being used by actual people shooting actual bullets into actual assholes, the vert grip, if used, is again, near the center of the point of balance on the rifle, within a few inches of the magwell.

Wrist over isnt a stupid grip. its just a competition grip. the problem is competitive shooters thinking its a tactical or combat shooting style. the sitting position is an awesome position for long range accuracy but nobody is claiming it as a 'combat' position as far as i know either.

...most shooting schools I’ve seen teach marksmanship...many having classes for long range shooting...

 

[Roaming East]

...most shooting schools I’ve seen teach marksmanship...many having classes for long range shooting...

these are incorporated into their basic carbine course or is it a separate course? Having seen the curriculum for a number of shooting courses, the emphasis was never on real marksmanship (im talking shooting distances of up to 500 yards). every defensive carbine course here in virginia is the typical sub 50 meter 'hits on steel' scoring method. its basically IPSC qualifiers.

Back to my original train of thought, which is why do people teach IPSC shooting styles, in combat courses, Go to youtube and look up Thunder Ranch videos. Clint runs his boys and girls through serious shooting curriculum some of which incorporates FIBUA tactics where you think IPSC style shooting would be an advantage. What you'll see is people using the time honored shooting styles that have persisted because they work and keep people alive. i especially like the video of the young lady with her vert grip 3 inches from the muzzle like a comp shooter would have....while holding her rifle by the magwell because that was the naturally superior method to engage her rifle in a CQB situation.

 

[ganjou234]

I especially like the video of the young lady with her vert grip 3 inches from the muzzle like a comp shooter would have....while holding her rifle by the magwell because that was the naturally superior method to engage her rifle in a CQB situation.

Can you link that vid?

 

[RerouteToRemain]

naturally superior

Less control is not superior. Slower transitions, less leverage, inferior weapon and muzzle control.

You can point to infantry troops that could have had as little as a couple 100 rounds behind a rifle before being deployed as experts but I'll take the advice of multiple sof veteran instructors. Also I'll go with what is being taught to current sof at sfauc for example.

 

[JohnPJones]

these are incorporated into their basic carbine course or is it a separate course? Having seen the curriculum for a number of shooting courses, the emphasis was never on real marksmanship (im talking shooting distances of up to 500 yards). every defensive carbine course here in virginia is the typical sub 50 meter 'hits on steel' scoring method. its basically IPSC qualifiers.

Back to my original train of thought, which is why do people teach IPSC shooting styles, in combat courses, Go to youtube and look up Thunder Ranch videos. Clint runs his boys and girls through serious shooting curriculum some of which incorporates FIBUA tactics where you think IPSC style shooting would be an advantage. What you'll see is people using the time honored shooting styles that have persisted because they work and keep people alive. i especially like the video of the young lady with her vert grip 3 inches from the muzzle like a comp shooter would have....while holding her rifle by the magwell because that was the naturally superior method to engage her rifle in a CQB situation.

for example valor ridge and 88tactical just off the top of my head have long range classes that start at about 300yds and move out to 800-1000 yd if I’m not mistaken.

Closer range training is more common for several reasons though.
These schools are offering classes to civilians, most civilians want the most relevant to them...and barring an SHTF/TEOTWAKI scenario anything much beyond 50yds with an AR or AK is not going to be likely to happen.

I believe many places offer basic rifle classes that are an introduction to marksmanship going out to 300yds and to get you familiar with your rifles manual of arms.

 

[jlagman]

I think it's important to understand the context from why a particular style or method became en vogue. While we're on the subject on vertical grips and gripping the magwell, I've heard and read from a lot of sources that the impetus for having/doing it was for long hours of patrol; a vertical grip or gripping the magwell is easier to carry at a low ready, for long hours on end and like @Roaming East mentioned, is more conducive to a snap shot.

I often get into pissing matches with Agency instructors and people in those circles about what we call the "C-clamp" pistol grip, where the support thumb wraps behind the web of the shooting hand. While it's still an "Agency approved" grip, I'm not a fan of it and argue that it was a historical remnant from when everyone was carrying a double-action revolver for duty.

At the end of the day, I don't have much respect for our instructors, rather, the curriculum they teach; there seems to be a lot of parroting without examining the rationale behind certain techniques or methods and why they may or may not work.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I think it's important to understand the context from why a particular style or method became en vogue. While we're on the subject on vertical grips and gripping the magwell, I've heard and read from a lot of sources that the impetus for having/doing it was for long hours of patrol; a vertical grip or gripping the magwell is easier to carry at a low ready, for long hours on end and like @Roaming East mentioned, is more conducive to a snap shot.

I often get into pissing matches with Agency instructors and people in those circles about what we call the "C-clamp" pistol grip, where the support thumb wraps behind the web of the shooting hand. While it's still an "Agency approved" grip, I'm not a fan of it and argue that it was a historical remnant from when everyone was carrying a double-action revolver for duty.

At the end of the day, I don't have much respect for our instructors, rather, the curriculum they teach; there seems to be a lot of parroting without examining the rationale behind certain techniques or methods and why they may or may not work.

I had to look up C-clamp pistol grip, and this came up, is this it?

I buy what Jerry is saying here.


Although it's a short forearm. I think Reaching out beyond a point needs to be practiced to make it work well, and trigger control is everything to make hits.

People don't usually walk around with their arms sticking out, so that arm out technique has gotta be time critical?

When I shot the few 3 gun matches I used a 20 inch service rifle like this: I think I was the only one there with a 20 inch rifle. Everyone looked at me like I was a goon, for the extra 4 inches.

There was one 110 yard stage with a 6 inch plate. One shot deal.

One guy pulled a lucky snap shot and got it pretty quick. They made him try it a 2nd and 3rd time and he missed both instances, but his 1st time counted. I've shot some good 200 yard offhand scores in High Power, but I'm a sure thing guy, so I dropped to prone and hit it. I lost 2 seconds to the fastest guy, but I didn't miss it either. Everything's a give and a get.

One of the matches the scenario was 1st A zone hit counts. I'm a cheapskate so I shot one shot per target. (10-75 yards these things were) Most everyone including the lucky snap shot guy shot 2-3 shots per target. They fucked up cause the time it took me to go Bang, Bang, Bang one shot a target over the course of the that match ended up putting me ahead by close to 30 seconds. They said I was just shooting it like a game. I said well yeah, isn't it? You guys think this is real? Ha. They changed the scenario next match to require 2 to 3 shots per target and I was behind the leaders cause I kept thinking what a waste of ammo!

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

On another note, Sometimes I think 3 gun and such type matches would be far better if they included autonomous or remote controlled Paintball Sentries.



People doing 3 gun IPSC, and IDPA do some of the stupidiest shit, in broad open because there's nothing shooting back at them.

Once they perfect paintball robots and incorporate them you wouldn't have all that shooting on the move and reloading out in the open stuff like now.

Get hit and that stage is over!

(Only problem is most of the guys I've seen doing 3 gun looked like out of shape slobs, who'd prolly trip and launch a live round in some really bad position, [So maybe its not such a good idea!] )

 

[jlagman]

I had to look up C-clamp pistol grip, and this came up, is this it?

I mean, "crossed thumbs" with a pistol:

They still teach that horseshit; my guess is that when the RCMP transitioned from double-action revolvers to semi-autos, dudes that were used to that grip complained to the union when they couldn't qualify. When we were armed, we copied and pasted their curriculum.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I mean, "crossed thumbs" with a pistol:

They still teach that horseshit; my guess is that when the RCMP transitioned from double-action revolvers to semi-autos, dudes that were used to that grip complained to the union when they couldn't qualify. When we were armed, we copied and pasted their curriculum.

Holy Shit.

 

[Gregolian]

Shit like THIS clown is what pisses me off. He's talking about wrist over grip as 'the best grip' to use because of some competitive shooting bullshit, but its not practical to use because A- if you have armor on its hard as fuck to steady your rifle easily, B- you cant move through tight areas and round corners very well, and C- it tires you out. Military guys like magwell grip or vert grips close to the magwell because its easy and fast to bring your sight up for snap shots and lower it back down as you move around and transition. You will almost NEVER see an actual COMBAT rifle kitted with a fucking vert grip 15+ inches from the the damn receiver. its retarded and uncomfortable for anything but quick shooting drills.


fun thing to do. do a GIS for 'US ARMY IN IRAQ' and just look at all the combat troops holding their rifle the 'wrong' way according to THIS douche-canoe. Because Mr. 'i shoot gongs at 10 feet for 5 seconds' knows more about weapon usage than a bunch of combat infantry guys balls deep in bad guy country.

I like the former Marine at Funker Tactical. He has another vid where he explains why he personally doesn't trust a 1911 to protect his life.

Most instructors dont teach actual marksmanship either. They teach 'contact drills' (mall ninja speak for CQB) because its easier to teach, quicker to learn, looks cool, and is 'modern'. Magwell grip IS less effective at rapidly shooting single targets at point blank range because its recoil management isnt as good. But shooting targets at up to 300 yards or further? its significantly better than wrist over grip. almost all forms of unsupported markmans ship drills generally have the offhand grip close to the balance point of the rifle....cause that is where its inherently stable. Its only when RAWR SHOOT FAST THE TARGET IS RIGHT THERE GO GO GO GO competition shooting became popular that you saw goofy extended grip shit taking off. Which is cool, but in actual real world fighting rifle setups actually being used by actual people shooting actual bullets into actual assholes, the vert grip, if used, is again, near the center of the point of balance on the rifle, within a few inches of the magwell.

Wrist over isnt a stupid grip. its just a competition grip. the problem is competitive shooters thinking its a tactical or combat shooting style. the sitting position is an awesome position for long range accuracy but nobody is claiming it as a 'combat' position as far as i know either.

The friend I do all my shooting with is an 82nd vet and I asked him about it once:
"It's great to TEACH people to have their arm out there for running gong drills but honestly.. put the lead hand wherever you feel that shit is comfortable and go cause way out in front clearing houses is stupid uncomfortable and puts half your arm at danger when you enter rooms."

 

[jlagman]

Holy Shit.

In fairness, that picture isn't exactly what is taught as one of the three approved grips; rather than the thumb going straight across, it's more like you line up the web of the support hand behind the web of the shooting hand, behind the beavertail. Because our Berettas have such a high bore, no one that I know of, has been bitten by the slide...yet.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

In fairness, that picture isn't exactly what is taught as one of the three approved grips; rather than the thumb going straight across, it's more like you line up the web of the support hand behind the web of the shooting hand, behind the beavertail. Because our Berettas have such a high bore, no one that I know of, has been bitten by the slide...yet.

And that's as a matter of Policy?

What happens if you step outside the box?

 

[Gregolian]

@Chesten_Hesten

My favorite part of that AR15 myths vid:
"That other one, of resting the bottom of the mag on the ground suddenly the Alpha and Omega will show up and the end of times will appear... horseshit."

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I like the former Marine at Funker Tactical. He has another vid where he explains why he personally doesn't trust a 1911 to protect his life.

The friend I do all my shooting with is an 82nd vet and I asked him about it once:
"It's great to TEACH people to have their arm out there for running gong drills but honestly.. put the lead hand wherever you feel that shit is comfortable and go cause way out in front clearing houses is stupid uncomfortable and puts half your arm at danger when you enter rooms."

Hey where's the part about the 1911?

I'm bored, I wanna hear yo!

 

[Gregolian]

Hey where's the part about the 1911?

I'm bored, I wanna hear yo!

He did an update where he said he would but I'd say if it were written out there'd be a giant asterisk next to saying he'd trust one as such:
"I'd trust a 1911 if and ONLY IF it's from Nighthawk Customs"


EDIT:
As a 1911 fanboy I will be honest... I'd rather carry my Glock. I've had very few malfunctions running my 1911s (my Springfield is picky about ammo and won't feed hollowpoints reliably and my Para has had an issue going into battery until I hit about 200 rounds downrange and then it stopped that issue) but I've NEVER had an issue with my 9mm converted G23 other than eating the ejected shells to my forehead as I haven't changed out the extractor.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

@Chesten_Hesten

My favorite part of that AR15 myths vid:
"That other one, of resting the bottom of the mag on the ground suddenly the Alpha and Omega will show up and the end of times will appear... horseshit."

As a carry over from Highpower I used a 20rnd mag in 3 gun. (I felt you could get better positions going) I was severely scoffed at for that.
They said you can't shoot as much.

Told then I ain't made of money, shooting all those extra bullets!

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

He did an update where he said he would but I'd say if it were written out there'd be a giant asterisk next to saying he'd trust one as such:
"I'd trust a 1911 if and ONLY IF it's from Nighthawk Customs"


EDIT:
As a 1911 fanboy I will be honest... I'd rather carry my Glock. I've had very few malfunctions running my 1911s (my Springfield is picky about ammo and won't feed hollowpoints reliably and my Para has had an issue going into battery until I hit about 200 rounds downrange and then it stopped that issue) but I've NEVER had an issue with my 9mm converted G23 other than eating the ejected shells to my forehead as I haven't changed out the extractor.

Those were good, spot on.

I keep gravitating back to my 1911, for my own reasons.

 

[Gregolian]

Those were good, spot on.

I keep gravitating back to my 1911, for my own reasons.

I've always felt they're one of the most natural feeling/natural pointing pistols I have ever shot.

Everyone I have held it feels SUPER comfortable in hand. Even my 14 round double stack Para though it feels large feels comfortable.