Judo pin question - crucifix

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by peregrine, Jun 4, 2014.

  1. peregrine

    peregrine Kahuna Dog

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    In judo practice I applied the crucifix from side turtle and rolled over while attacking the neck. My partner was able to break my neck attack. At that point I continued to control both arms.
    He defended in part by climbing on me with his shoulders ... while I continued attacks. I was only partially trying as in my mind I was in a dominant position though I could not escape or stand. All he could do was defend and put pressure on my chest with his shoulders.

    Was I or he pinned? With regard to ijf rules.
     
  2. Judo Thai Boxer

    Judo Thai Boxer <img src="http://www.mediafire.com/download/kjmldl

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    Isn't a crucifix just a mune gatame but trapping the leg too? I don't see why that wouldn't be a hold.
     
  3. metallifan3091

    metallifan3091 Green Belt

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    That depends on if he's talking about a topside crucifix or a crucifix from the back.

    I believe that he's talking about the former, in which case it is essentially mune gatame with your legs trapping uke's near arm.

    TS, are you saying that when you attacked the neck, you willingly gave up top position in the process? If that's the case, I can't see how you could possibly argue that you were applying osaekomi, since you were on the bottom.

    As for your opponent (assuming that you did end up on bottom) I'm honestly not sure how the IJF would treat this.

    With his arms trapped by your arms and legs, I wouldn't think that it'd qualify as a pin, but I could be wrong. If he were able to free his near arm from your legs, it'd probably be a pin for him. If not, my guess is that you would be stood back up relatively quickly.
     
  4. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    Neither of you. You were on bottom, and his chest was facing their ceiling.
     
  5. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

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    No pins here.
    He was on the top, with absolutely no control, to have an actual pin.
     
  6. Mcmoon

    Mcmoon Green Belt

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    This is what I have been told as well.
     
  7. ChainFlow

    ChainFlow Brown Belt

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    No pins, it used to count as a pin according to my coach but they changed to rules so that facing the ceiling with your chest means it is not osaekomi. Have to be on a side or facing them.
     
  8. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    When i was competing you would be pinned under ura gatame, i think they changed the rules, but i dont know if it applies or not.
     
  9. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe Orange Belt

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    I can check with my sensei but I'm pretty sure that's right. Any time I try attacks from my back, we get stood up very quickly.
     
  10. peregrine

    peregrine Kahuna Dog

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    Thanks. I am actually referring to rolling onto my back with his chest aimed up at the ceiling.
     
  11. ChainFlow

    ChainFlow Brown Belt

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    Right, we know. You're not pinning him and he isn't pinning you.
     
  12. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

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    Yes, but you control the pin with ura gatame.
    When someone crucifixes you from his back, there is no control you can apply, so it's not you pinning him, but more of a voluntary move from the opponent in order to get submission.
    He should play it safe and not lay flat on his back though...
     

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