Judo: one of the ultimate grappling arts?

Foul Breath said:
When the Japanese police force pitted judo against jujitsu at the turn of the century to determine which style would be mandatory for the police to learn, Judo decimated the Jujitsu rivals in fight after fight.

I have heard stories similar to this about why Judo became the dominant MA in Japan. I am curious, where did you get your source?

Also, was this matchup between Judo and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu OR Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? Putting Japanese or Brazilian infront of Jiu-Jitsu can make a 'world' of difference - get it?
 
private ryan said:
im currently going to bjj 3-4 times a week and after getting my arse kicked by a judo black belt in my white belt bjj fight i figured i need to improve my stand up alot.
would people recommend adding one night a week of judo or would that not be enough?
i have my next fight in february and i want to improve alot.
I think it would definitely help.
I train BJJ 2x a week & also do 1 night of judo. I try to just train throws & stand-up at my judo class. I feel I get enough ground work in BJJ, and we never work takedowns/throws at my BJJ school. I think it's a good mix. You should be able to get proficient at a throw or 2 by February.
 
Judo is the first MMA, consisting of Striking, throwing, and ground work. Kano took the best techniques from various jiu jitsu styles and created one ultimate jiu jitsu style, as well as creating the rank system and the gi. BJJ, which came from the Judo lineage of jiu jitsu, is more like the judo kano intended then today's judo which trains more for sport competition than for self defense or fighting. Judo now isn't even a shadow of its former self. If you want real Judo, technique wise, mastering bjj, sambo, and judo is a path worth taking.
 
Wylian said:
In response for someone in the beginning of the thread. Kimura and Yoshida was much heavier than their opponents. That's all.

Kimura trained differently than judoka today, plus he did catch/professional wrestling..

Yoshida, well... no comment
 
Judo is certainly "one" of the best grappling arts. I'd put it in the top 5.
 
fozzit said:
Judo is the first MMA, consisting of Striking, throwing, and ground work. Kano took the best techniques from various jiu jitsu styles and created one ultimate jiu jitsu style, as well as creating the rank system and the gi. BJJ, which came from the Judo lineage of jiu jitsu, is more like the judo kano intended then today's judo which trains more for sport competition than for self defense or fighting. Judo now isn't even a shadow of its former self. If you want real Judo, technique wise, mastering bjj, sambo, and judo is a path worth taking.

Not correct. Ancient Grecian Pankration is the earliest recorded discipline that mixed striking and grappling, and predates Judo by several thousand years.

Undoubtably there were other cultures that did the same before the Greeks, but as far as I know there are no historical records of such competitions.
 
So speaks a man who's never been heelhooked. Sambo and Judo share many similarities but they are not the same thing.

I have been heelhooked, in BJJ.

And: BB in 1-2 years... WTF mate? I have trained judo for 10 years, a last few of them competing very actively, at the moment I train 8 times a week and still am a blue belt. Okay, most of my more sk1ll3d friends with same kind of a background are brown belts, but still... I'm trying out for my brown the next summer.

BB in so little time can only happen in the States or in the Japan, and I might say that there is still a huge difference between a Japanese newbie BB and an American one. Plus I have to say that I'm quite amazed how "foreign" people describe the ground skills of those judokas you've met. Cultural differences I guess? O_O

PS. Belts are there to keep the jacket tight, they don't win the matches for you.
 
10 years and your a blue? lol at the Kudokan they offer a program to become shodan in 1 year....

thats crazy man.. either your training at the toughest judo place in the world bar none.. or you are mentally retarded.

If your training 8 times a week for 10 years thats minimal at 1 hour a day 4160 mat hours.... hard to believe you are still considered a novice.... are you missing apendages? blind? clubbed hands?
 
Coach Couzo said:
I have heard stories similar to this about why Judo became the dominant MA in Japan. I am curious, where did you get your source?

Also, was this matchup between Judo and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu OR Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? Putting Japanese or Brazilian infront of Jiu-Jitsu can make a 'world' of difference - get it?

I got my source from numerous books on the "History of the Martial Arts" and so on. Its easy to find such info. That match up was against japanese Jiu-jitsu because BJJ didnt exist yet at that time! All BJJ basics are derived from Judo and BJJ have nothing Judo hasn't seen before except some leg locks. Same shit, different pile.
 
Muay Thai= fighting with hands, feet, elbows knees
karate= fighting with hands, feet: and Muay Thai have nothing karate asn't seen before some elbows and keeds

= karate and muay thai are the same.
 
Darwinist said:
Not correct. Ancient Grecian Pankration is the earliest recorded discipline that mixed striking and grappling, and predates Judo by several thousand years.

Undoubtably there were other cultures that did the same before the Greeks, but as far as I know there are no historical records of such competitions.


Ok, if you consider striking a martial art on it's own, and grappling a martial art on it's own, then I'll agree with you and retract my statement to, "Judo is the first MMA in the modern world."

But if you consider MMA training techniques from different martial art systems, then I'll stand by my original statement.


as far as Karate and Muy thai, the only thing they share in common with eachother is striking. Muy Thai has a completely different history than karate, but many karate fighters have ventured into the muy thai system to cmpete. It can not be compared to sambo, bjj, or judo because all three systems share the same origin.
 
A serious judoka that does well in comp should have his black in 4-6 years.
 
stephensharp said:
I hope this post is why you have the dubs. Seriously.

How is Ju Jutsu, the art which Judo (and Sambo and BJJ) grew out of, a mixture of Judo, Karate, and wing chun, a Kung Fu (read: Chinese) style with questionable origins?

Jujutsu/Ju Jutsu/Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is the catch all name for the various martial arts of the samurai ryus of pre-1900's Japan. It fell out of vogue when their society changed, and it came to be associated with street thugs and prize fighters until Kano picked it up and repackaged a couple styles as Judo to make it public-friendly. Kodokan Ryu Jujitsu (what it was called for a while, or Kano Ryu) got it's ass whupped by Fusen Ryu, so pulled away all their best students and absorbed the school. Judo was born, reigned supreme until after the war, at which time sanctions placed on the Japanese government concerning disarmament and a ban on martial training (they weren't allowed to have an army) necesitated Judo's transformation into a sport. The sport was most easily won by throwing, so schools focused on that the way any sport school will focus on the best way to win at their sport.

Maeda, a KRJ BB (and as a result, Judo BB) went to Brazil and trained Gastao Gracie's kids, and that's where BJJ came from. It was developed for fighting, and stayed that way for a long time, but now is being turned more and more into a sport style, and getting away from the minimal striking they trained, unless you find an MMA-focused school.

All that said, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestling, and Judo are the big names in wrestling, so they ARE all the ultimate grappling arts. I can't even name any others that aren't off shoots of those that aren't as distinct.

On average, in the US, Judo and Sambo schools train a couple nights a week, and spend 80% of the time on their feet. BJJ guys train four or more nights a week, and spend 90% of the time on the ground. In a given year, that breaks up to the BJJ guys spending roughly the same ammount of time standing the Judo guys do on the ground (since they train twice as often), and over twice the ammount of time on the ground Judo guys spend standing. Given that current model, a Judo guy will NEVER match a BJJ guy of equivalent rank on the mat, and it's easier for a BJJ guy to develop a takedown game to get it there (I've competed in both, and I've seen plenty of guys that have only done some wrestling come in and sweep Judo divisions with nothing but a double leg and a pin to their arsenal. I've also heard of, but haven't seen, guys winning on points in BJJ with the same game plan, but your average white belt that competes in BJJ will have more answers to that gameplan than the first three or so ranks in Judo. If a BJJer trains his shot for his 10% of his training time...).

All things being equal, training time et al, a Judo BB takes 3-6 years at 2 classes a week to get. A BJJ purple belt takes 6-8 years of four nights a week. The deck is stacked.

I've been doing Judo since 2001 at a school that also had BJJ, had a long break for an injury, and then did another year of Judo before getting ot my current BJJ school. I'm a blue in BJJ, with a great top game and some throws that get a lot of compliments, but aren't all that special. I'm like a white belt off my back, so luckily I have some good sweeps. My original Judo/BJJ school spent about 50% or more of the time on ne waza, because we didn't have time for randori, so would just do the throws as drills with rare one-on-one.

After a year + off rehabbing my knee, I took a Judo my division in a judo tournament and stifled a black belt in the open division, all with ground work (and defending the throws). I wound up losing off an ouchi gari because I was standing too straight after stupidly letting the black belt up (I literally stood up and called him to his feet when I was up on points, because he was doing a good job of turtling, and I didn't want to waste energy. The ref told me he was gonna let me run the clock, since I was staying so active.).

I ran that tourney on what I remembered on the mat. I got a Kimura, a Jujigatame, and a Wakigatame, and rolled the black belt with an Anaconda, but didn't feel like I was gonna finish it.

Yet all it took was a basic inside reap to end my tear.



Judo's stand up grappling is superb.

BJJ's ground grappling is superior.

Sambo has grip work and positioning innovations that could bring up anyone's game in either.



Studying all three would make you the ultimate grappler.

long post i dont bother to read completely

(wikipedia)
"Deutsches Ju-Jutsu ist ein modernes, offenes Selbstverteidigungssystem f
 
fozzit said:
Ok, if you consider striking a martial art on it's own, and grappling a martial art on it's own, then I'll agree with you and retract my statement to, "Judo is the first MMA in the modern world."

But if you consider MMA training techniques from different martial art systems, then I'll stand by my original statement.


as far as Karate and Muy thai, the only thing they share in common with eachother is striking. Muy Thai has a completely different history than karate, but many karate fighters have ventured into the muy thai system to cmpete. It can not be compared to sambo, bjj, or judo because all three systems share the same origin.

Wrong again. Boxing was considered a martial art at the time, and so was wrestling. Many Pankration competitors also did one or sometimes both in addition to Pankration. Pankration was the original "boxer vs wrestler" event. It is most definently the first historically recorded attempt at MMA. They even had the same two rules as old-school Vale Tudo - No biting and no eye gouging, and nothing else. One thing I think that modern MMA should try to implement was their unique take on stalling. Instead of carding or otherwise penalizing fighter the ref always had a stick in his hands and simply thumped the offending fighter until he started to move!
 
as far as Karate and Muy thai, the only thing they share in common with eachother is striking. Muy Thai has a completely different history than karate, but many karate fighters have ventured into the muy thai system to cmpete. It can not be compared to sambo, bjj, or judo because all three systems share the same origin.

boxing is fighting with hands
Savate is fighting with hands and feet
there is nothing in savate that boxing doesn't have save a few kicks therefore
savate=boxing
 
Foul Breath said:
In a street fight Id much rather fight a Bjj guy than a judo guy, because the Bjjs guys attempt of going to the ground in the street will lead to his demise. Street fights need to stay up for obvious reasons. A judo guy would stay up and he will make sure he will not go to the ground either so he makes more of a potentially dangerous obstacle.
It took me 15 years to get my black in Judo and 4 to get purple in Bjj under Henzo. (Need minimum a 2+ year waiting period before gettin tested for another level in Judo). I
 
10 years and your a blue? lol at the Kudokan they offer a program to become shodan in 1 year....

thats crazy man.. either your training at the toughest judo place in the world bar none.. or you are mentally retarded.

If your training 8 times a week for 10 years thats minimal at 1 hour a day 4160 mat hours.... hard to believe you are still considered a novice.... are you missing apendages? blind? clubbed hands?

I thought i said _at_the_moment_ I train 8 times/week? I have been "trying really hard" for a three years or so now. And active competitors my age tend to have their browns already so, I'm kind of an "one belt too late". No, I'm not considered a novice but neither am I top5 in my category.

Well yeah, we do have the hardest belt tests of the world in here. Somehow I still understand that one can get a shodan in under a year in _JAPAN_, but experience has taught me that people who have got their bb's in so little time in other countries tend to be less skilled than their Japanese counterparts.

And no, I'm not retarded in any way. I may have become a little slower after taking so much punishment but thats it :D.
 
judogido said:
That's just GERMAN Ju-Jutsu, isnt it?. There's Brazillian JJ, Traditional JJ and probably a few other regional and national flavours. They are different in their styles & applications. Dont assume "Deutsches Ju-Jutsu" IS "Ju-Jutsu" as you are stating:


Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ju-Jutsu

I said "we" do that and that.
And we do (German) Ju Jutsu.
So what is untrue about that.
 
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