Judo in MMA - Analysis by Jimmy Pedro

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by philodox, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. philodox

    philodox Orange Belt

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    Not sure if this has been shared here before, but great article on Bloody Elbow breaking down Akiyama's Judo game for MMA... analysis done by Jimmy Pedro (US Olympic Judo coach, multi-time Olympian, 2x bronze)

    Judo Chop: The Instinctive Judo of Yoshihiro Akiyama - Bloody Elbow

    There is also a great 2 part interview with him where he discusses (among other things) the recent changes to Olympic Judo rules (not being able to grab the legs) earlier this year. He also discusses Judokas transitioning to MMA... really great read

    Interview With U.S. Olympic Judo Coach Jimmy Pedro, Part 1 - Bloody Elbow

    Interview With U.S. Olympic Judo Coach Jimmy Pedro, Part 2 - Bloody Elbow
     
  2. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    LoL Drew gotta be proud now, one week it is him doing the analysis next thing they get a former world class athlete:p

    Very cool article

    I definitely agree with him about the opportunities people miss but it is getting better, more and more people do judo-ish techniques then a couple of years ago

    Maia throwing Chael for example
     
  3. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    good read!
     
  4. AthletcBodyCare

    AthletcBodyCare Orange Belt

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    Awesome! Jimmy is the man. Look for one of his student Rick Hawn, to make a big splash in MMA.
     
  5. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    good read...

    only thing he forgot to add is that there was a reason why bjj exploded in the US, and it was called Royce Gracie... If Royce wouldnt have proved the superiority of bjj over other styles in what it was considered pretty much a street fight, It wouldnt have matter if in the early 90's 100000 bjj black, brown, and purple belts would've came to the US and every one of them opened a gym, they wouldnt have lasted very long and probably would've gone back to brazil, because they wouldnt have had a market for those gyms to stayed open...
     
  6. Stun Gun

    Stun Gun Green Belt

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    good stuff!
     
  7. lts5025

    lts5025 "What the **** is a Dim Mack?"

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    Thanks for the link. WAR JUDO.

    Oh, and Rick Hawn is a beast.
     
  8. killakoy

    killakoy Purple Belt

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    Thank you for the good read. There's another reason why more Judoka haven't crossed over into MMA. Basically, it goes against Professor Kano's philosophy about Judo.
     
  9. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    No it is in there, he talks about all styles having their Dan Severn, catch Ken, sambo Oleg, BJJ Royce
     
  10. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    A double or single isn't the only way to take somebody down

    [​IMG]

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    ^from the article



    Pedro: If you notice, all of the techniques that Akiyama executes are done instinctually. There was really no thought process that had to take place. There was nothing forced. There wasn't a struggle to get the guy over, just instinct. In all of the Akiyama clips we covered, the guy goes over effortlessly. Just instinct. And that's the sign of a high-level Judoka.



    I think Pedro is definitely right right about the "effortlesness" of judo, I don't see wrestling in the same light, or rather it is different for many of the wrestlers

    people say that speed is the first thing to go, so GSP and Kos won't have long careers. Guys like Fitch or Randy will/have becuase thier takedowns are more static strength and a different kind of skill

    Just like Karo, not the physical specimen like most wrestlers and injrued as hell but still got to use it against many guys with wrestling experience
     
  11. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    bonus


    from mma-core
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  12. MMA junkie

    MMA junkie Purple Belt

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    Last time I checked, there are more takedowns in Wrestling than double or singles. Even some of the takedowns/trips you showed are done in Wrestling by Wrestlers with no Judo experience.

    Speed may be the first to go, but they are playing to their strengths, which is speed/power. Who says they can't adapt and have more other wrestling skills? I'm sure Kos does.
     
  13. Douglas Funnie

    Douglas Funnie Green Belt

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    For sure, man, for sure.

    This post is right on. Shoulder throws and hip throws and upper body tie-ups are huge in wrestling.
     
  14. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    Of course there is but they are not as frequent in wrestling and hence not as good, just like doubles and singles are in judo but not as frequent and thus not as good
    The US aren't a powerhouse in freestyle wrestling perhaps due to US wrestlers being shoot based

    i just love to post this highlight, my all time favorite highlight
    YouTube - Saitiev Highlights

    Just pure awesomeness

    but alas
    YouTube - Choi Minho South Korea Judo Gold Medal 2008 Olympics
    look at those two finishing "single-legs" equally as awesome, and semi winning ankle pick there in between to
    The Effectiveness of Morote Gari on Yahoo! Video
    ^
     
  15. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    yet we don't see many wrestlers do them alot in MMA

    I recall Joe Daddy hitting one shoulder throw, trips from the clinch yes they do happen more often but we don't see wrestlers having it as their go to move

    Even wrestlers known for their clinch often just stand their clinching, pyshing against the cage and want a greco type takedown (and all greco guys in the US are folkstyle guys originally)

    The gi changes alot, you obviously can get more footsweeps because you can manipulate the other dude more without moving as much yourself

    We do see more and more "judo-ish" techniques in MMA thou, GSP threw Hughes with a haraigoshi/taiotoshi hybrid, GSP is a great wrestler but he learned that specifically from Shonie Carter(maybe not saying anything because Shonie is a wrestler judoka and pimp)

    Hughes and Serra hit footsweeps on each other:D

    but to my point, which I also wrote in my first post but Mr Jimmy Pedro has more gravitas:
    [​IMG]
    You see, this is sort of something... when I watch MMA a lot, I question why guys don't focus on-or do a little bit more-Judo training. Because some of these guys are just so exposed and so off-balance-or leaning in a certain direction-that Judo would easily get them to the ground if that was where the fighter wanted to take the game.

    In this technique, essentially, all Akiyama does is feel where Leben is leaning: Hard to the right of Akiyama. [Leben] puts his head down a little bit, and his hips are bent. Now, in order to avoid being thrown in Judo, you need to stand up with your hips in. You know, much like in the Muay Thai plum: The way to defend it is to bring your hips in and stand up. As soon as you bend over, you're gonna catch a knee. To avoid being thrown in Judo, you have to stand up with your hips in as well.

    So, if you notice in this technique, Leben's head is down, he's leaning forward, and all Akiyama is does is execute a Harai Goshi, which means "major outer reaping,' a sweeping hip throw. Basically, he grabs the head with his left hand, grabs an arm with his right-almost like a headlock-and whips his left leg over outside and catches him with the Harai Goshi.

    Pedersen: I've noticed that, in Olympic Judo, guys like to really roll through the throw and try and get that perfect "ippon." The way Akiyama turns out after the throw [to the other side of side control]... is that something he picked up in Judo?

    Pedro: Right. I mean, in Judo, you want the guy to land flat on his back to get the maximum score. If they land on their side, then it's a smaller score that you get and the match isn't over. In this throw, if you notice, Leben rolls across both of his shoulder blades. So if that was a throw in Judo, the match would have been over. Akiyama would have won. So without question, Akiyama's instinct is to roll through in order to maximize back exposure and get that higher score. Now, if done correctly here-if Akiyama had just sunk his hips at the moment of impact-he would have flattened out Leben in a sort of head-and-arm hold. A headlock, if you will. Like if you're a kid and you headlock your buddy. That's more ideally the position where he would have finished this technique.

    Back to me:

    especially caught up against the clinch there are a ton of opportunities

    even the usually douchebaggy Hughes shows judo respect:icon_chee
     
  16. MMA junkie

    MMA junkie Purple Belt

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    Well there's also Greco-Roman...

    As far as GSP/Kos, like I stated, they are playing to their strengths. Basically, if it works, use it.

    I'm not anti-Judo at all, I think it's a beautiful art. However a lot of their throws are dangerous and expose yourself in MMA as opposed to a good double or low single. Effectiveness should be the most important thing here. If you have a GREAT double or single, use it.

    Cain's lifting type of shoot is mainly due to his size. He's been training Wrestling a lot longer than he has been with Camarillo. When you watch collegiate Wrestling, you will notice the heavyweights don't play the same game as a smaller Kos/GSP.

    There's a lot of reasons why the U.S. has its problems in Freestyle Wrestling, I disagree that it is mainly because they are shoot based. The reason why people do not shoot as much in Judo is because they always have grips on the Gi.

    I do agree there are some opportunities more on clinch throwing. As to Greco-Roman, you don't see a lot of it in MMA either. Far too often it's an upper body clinch followed by a leg trip and labeled Greco-Roman.
     
  17. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    And this is in no way a pissing contest vs wrestling

    they are great at mostly different things

    I have a judo background but would have loved a Greco one as i think that would have suited me way more, even in judo I hit alotta stuff from underhooks/over under

    If I can tout my own horn I think this is very Greco-ish

    at 0,15 seconds
    and this

    right at the start, I had seen my mate do a similar throw just a couple of minutes before and just went for it, nothing i had trained at all :p
     
  18. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    Yeah I don't think we are disagreeing that much at all

    but re the dangerous and over exposing themselves
    wrestlers have their achilles heel in the guilliotine or anaconda if they are sprawled on.

    People seem to judge judo on olympic highlights sometimes, when they overthrow it is because
    A: those mofos are hard to impossible to throw
    YouTube - Impossible judo
    ^^
    Insane shit!
    B: if they get the ippon they don't care how they land so why bother?
    if they need they can adjust just like Aki's throw there on Leben, he does roll over but shifts his hips



    I don't get at all why we don't see more direct sweeps a la sacrifice throw from doubles thou, alotta time instead of jsut sprawling sprawling and then getting taken down anyway they should try after the initial stuff/sprawl just use head and arm or any other grip, there is also the kimura gripping and throwing that works of a shoot

    I am totally onboard with effectivness, that is why I said opportunities, not saying they should have it as their main offense, but often it ends up in an atrition war against the fence, wouldn't a simple takedown at that point be more effective?
    And as the creed of judo implies: Seiryoku Zenyo Principle of maximum efficiency
     
  19. MMA junkie

    MMA junkie Purple Belt

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    Def no pissing contest. I hate those in grappling arts as I feel we are all related, like cousins.

    Nice throws. Last one lateral drop is shown at all levels of grappling, incl folkstyle. :) still more risky than a timed leg attack IMO.
     
  20. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    And again re GSP/Kos

    some guys can adapt as thier attributes change, some can not

    I mean we have seen guys like Kerr and Coleman and Randleman struggle as hell when age hits them
     

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