Judo Era in MMA/UFC

[Rematch]

he won the 1992 Barcelona Olympics. You might be thinking of his student kaz nak who is a small time silver medalist.

You're right.

 

[Gorbag]

I could be wrong, however, i was under the impression in Russia, sambo and judo are pretty interchangeable, and Voronov, his coach, I thought that he taught Fedor Judo and Sambo growing up, I would be surprised and don't think it's the case that he only taught Judo since he was a kid, it might not necessarily have been combat sambo though, I'm not sure, but who knows...

I also read an interview with his coach stating that Fedor was into judo at the age of 12 and then we have his participation in high level judo tournaments later on. He probably must have tried some Sports Sambo as well, but I have never seen any results from that at all.

 

[mkt]

It's revisionist history to say that Ronda brought Judo to UFC/MMA. She gets the most recognition for obvious reasons, but she was hardly the first to use it effectively.

Christophe Leninger was the first high-level judoka (U.S. Olympic team alternate). Unfortunately, he faced a bigger, stronger and more experienced Ken Shamrock at UFC 3. He won all of his early fights outside the UFC by submission, however. He lost to Guy Mezger by decision in a later UFC, but executed a beautiful throw.

 

[Darwinambrosius]

Christophe Leninger was the first high-level judoka (U.S. Olympic team alternate). Unfortunately, he faced a bigger, stronger and more experienced Ken Shamrock at UFC 3. He won all of his early fights outside the UFC by submission, however. He lost to Guy Mezger by decision in a later UFC, but executed a beautiful throw.

That's a great example. Even guys like Frye and Taktarov were also early examples of Judo backgrounds.

 

[val_lixembeau]

Beat me to it. His throws were dynamic and forceful whereas RRR its just a soft way to get them to the floor.

But I wonder how effective they were. I have never reviewed a Karo fight after watching it the first time, but from what I remember, he often had so much rotation on his throws that he didn't necessarily end up in an advantageous position at the end.

And given that IMO he lost to DHK, I'm skeptical he coulded have defended the belt for any length of time even if he could have taken it off Hughes.

 

[finalboss]

But I wonder how effective they were. I have never reviewed a Karo fight after watching it the first time, but from what I remember, he often had so much rotation on his throws that he didn't necessarily end up in an advantageous position at the end.

And given that IMO he lost to DHK, I'm skeptical he coulded have defended the belt for any length of time even if he could have taken it off Hughes.

Props to giusti825. I think this is a good example.

 

[JustOnce]

I also read an interview with his coach stating that Fedor was into judo at the age of 12 and then we have his participation in high level judo tournaments later on. He probably must have tried some Sports Sambo as well, but I have never seen any results from that at all.

Do you mind sharing a link? I'm fairly, was fairly sure that Voronov was the sambo guy

 

[Gorbag]

Do you mind sharing a link? I'm fairly, was fairly sure that Voronov was the sambo guy

I google it and found that Voronovs background is both judo and sambo;

"At 12 years old, Fedor's family could not afford to buy him the Judo suit and training shoes he needed for class, so his first trainer, Vasiley Gavrilov, bought them for him.

Fedor remains loyal to his earliest trainers, such as Vladimir Voronov, who has trained him since he was 12 years old, long before his MMA career began. Voronov specializes in Sambo and Judo. In 1997, he was training Fedor for the Russian national Judo team, in preparation for the Olympics. (...)

So in 2000, Voronov and Fedor decided to focus on MMA." (...)

"When he was younger, Fedor was musically gifted, but his mother made him choose between the accordion and Judo. He chose Judo. "

"I was a pretty independent and responsible child. My two focuses were studying and training. I fell in love with Judo at the age of 12."

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content4118.html

 

[Uber_Noober]

 

[JustOnce]

I google it and found that Voronovs background is both judo and sambo;

"At 12 years old, Fedor's family could not afford to buy him the Judo suit and training shoes he needed for class, so his first trainer, Vasiley Gavrilov, bought them for him.

Fedor remains loyal to his earliest trainers, such as Vladimir Voronov, who has trained him since he was 12 years old, long before his MMA career began. Voronov specializes in Sambo and Judo. In 1997, he was training Fedor for the Russian national Judo team, in preparation for the Olympics. (...)

So in 2000, Voronov and Fedor decided to focus on MMA." (...)

"When he was younger, Fedor was musically gifted, but his mother made him choose between the accordion and Judo. He chose Judo. "

"I was a pretty independent and responsible child. My two focuses were studying and training. I fell in love with Judo at the age of 12."

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content4118.html

Very interesting

Wierd how Fedor seems to try to distance himself from Judo

 

[Gorbag]

Very interesting

Wierd how Fedor seems to try to distance himself from Judo

Remember that Fedor became the “posterboy” of combat sambo after failing to qualify for the 2000 olympic’s. Combat sambo was not an established sport when Fedor started doing it, so he has been one of the main actors in building up that sport besides also compeating in MMA.

How deep was Fedor into Sport Sambo then? I don’t know anything about Fedor participating in Sport Sambo because I have seen nothing about it.

From Fedors MMA fights Fedor has several wins by hadaka-jime, thats legal in judo but illegal in Sambo. If Fedor really was an advanced Sambo practitioner I suppose he also would have surprised the MMA crowd with spectacular wins by leg-locks, but the submissions I have seem from him are ude-garami, juji-gatame and hadaka-jime variations from judo rather than Sambo leg locks.

 

[touchedbyjab]

I'm more a fan of the "just bleed" era.

 

[JustOnce]

Remember that Fedor became the “posterboy” of combat sambo after failing to qualify for the 2000 olympic’s. Combat sambo was not an established sport when Fedor started doing it, so he has been one of the main actors in building up that sport besides also compeating in MMA.

How deep was Fedor into Sport Sambo then? I don’t know anything about Fedor participating in Sport Sambo because I have seen nothing about it.

From Fedors MMA fights Fedor has several wins by hadaka-jime, thats legal in judo but illegal in Sambo. If Fedor really was an advanced Sambo practitioner I suppose he also would have surprised the MMA crowd with spectacular wins by leg-locks, but the submissions I have seem from him are ude-garami, juji-gatame and hadaka-jime variations from judo rather than Sambo leg locks.

about us more likely seeing more sambo leg locks, i'm not so sure about that actually, because lot of other high level combat sambo guys doesn't seem to be winning their fights from leg locks, at least from what i'm seeing, and i don't really think that's the case but i haven't really been paying close attention to them specifically either

and it's kinda hard to tell them apart because judo techniques are integrated into sambo, so technically it could be sambo techniques as well, just like judo branched out of jujitsu from my understanding, but still techniques are all called judo techniques, and etc etc

 

[Gorbag]

about us more likely seeing more sambo leg locks, i'm not so sure about that actually, because lot of other high level combat sambo guys doesn't seem to be winning their fights from leg locks, at least from what i'm seeing, and i don't really think that's the case but i haven't really been paying close attention to them specifically either

and it's kinda hard to tell them apart because judo techniques are integrated into sambo, so technically it could be sambo techniques as well, just like judo branched out of jujitsu from my understanding, but still techniques are all called judo techniques, and etc etc

Chokes are ilegal in Sambo but legal in judo and Fedor has several wins by chokes.

Let’s try to evaluate evidence then, what is Fedors base as a MMA fighter? Well, it cannot be related to striking since he started to train striking systematically in 2000, even hired a coach for it, so Fedors base was definitely related to grappling.

Combat Sambo tournaments was something new in the late nineties, its not like his coach Voronov trained him in that sport through his teens. Fedor seem to have started to experiment with CS in the late nineties, but its unlikely that he put much effort into it in the beginning when he represented Team Russia in international judo tournaments and aimed to become an Olympic champion in judo.

Then we have two realistic possibilities either Fedors base is originally Sport Sambo or Judo. Fedor probably tried both when very young but if you are ambitious you have to spezialise and Mother Russia will program their talents to the sport they are best suited.

Are there any evidence at all that Fedor spezialied in Sport Sambo rather than judo? - if not I would just use Occams razor and conclude that Fedor was primarily a judoka, at least until year 2000, and that judo is his base. Same as Wladimir Putin that also swapped a little between judo and Sport Sambo when starting out and then spezialised in judo...

 

[Doughbelly]

It's a misunderstanding about Fedor, his base was judo not sambo. Fedor competed in judo from the age of 12 to 23 then switched to combat sambo a mixed fighting disipline that include striking, basically MMA with a gi top.

In the former Soviet states, judo and sambo (plus whatever local jacket wrestling style) is pretty much the same thing, done on the same time on the same mats by the same people until you start to specialize if you make international quals.

Both Severn and Don Frye had judo backgrounds prior to competing in the UFC.

I think it was all fairly minimal. Severn certainly did dive deep into judo afterwards, though.

 

[Team Sleep]

Karo and Yoshida already did that homie. Also fedor, while I'm sure is well versed in judo, was the first to put sambo on display and show its right up there with other MA. Unless you count oleg but I think fedor brought more attention to it.

Karo was the best man. Shame drugs really did him in.

 

[Doughbelly]

Then we have two realistic possibilities either Fedors base is originally Sport Sambo or Judo. Fedor probably tried both when very young but if you are ambitious you have to spezialise and Mother Russia will program their talents to the sport they are best suited.

That's not true at all. Unless you're someone with a decent shot at a string of medals in A-point tournaments, you're not expected to specialize in judo competition, if at all. Judo competition specialization really only happens for a select group of guys after what we'd call high school/college/military service years and that's only if you show promise.

Everyone else in the whole sports program is going to end up doing both for no other than you're going to end up coaching both at some school somewhere when your competition years run out.

 

[Pacemaker Joe]

Karo was the best man. Shame drugs really did him in.

His anxiety issues did as much damage to his career as the painkillers did. But yea, it would have been great to see what he could have done if he'd stayed clean and didn't have any psych issues.

 

[Gorbag]

That's not true at all. Unless you're someone with a decent shot at a string of medals in A-point tournaments, you're not expected to specialize in judo competition, if at all. Judo competition specialization really only happens for a select group of guys after what we'd call high school/college/military service years and that's only if you show promise.

Everyone else in the whole sports program is going to end up doing both for no other than you're going to end up coaching both at some school somewhere when your competition years run out.

So what you are saying is that athletes in Russia that aim to compete at a high level don't spezialise before very late in their proper sport??? There are certainly lots of common stuff between Sport Sambo and Judo, but to reach a very high level I cannot believe that judo was not priority for Fedor from early teens and onwards, even if he may have swapped into Sambo also.

Here are some judo results I have found of Fedor;

He has two medals from the Russian national championship from 1998 and 1999.

These are Fedor’s international judo results;

1. Moscow International tournament 24/01/1999, 3 place

2. Sofia, Bulgaria, Liberation cup, A-tournament 07/02/1999; 3 place

3. Rotterdam, The Netherlands, Dutch Open Grand prix 01/04’2000; 7th place

Obviously the last result from Dutch Open Grand prix was where he finally failed to qualify for the Olympics’.

And finally here are head to heads international matches from 6 different judo world cups that Fedor fought in;

http://www.judoinside.com/judoka/8554/Fedor_Emelianenko/judo-matches

Alright, I have now presented some hard evidence that shows Fedors judo record, so whats Fedors competitive results from Sport Sambo then, did he even compete at all, what’s his placings?

 

[Doughbelly]

So what you are saying is that athletes in Russia that aim to compete at a high level don't spezialise before very late in their proper sport??? There are certainly lots of common stuff between Sport Sambo and Judo, but to reach a very high level I cannot believe that judo was not priority for Fedor from early teens and onwards, even if he may have swapped into Sambo also.

Here are some judo results I have found of Fedor;

He has two medals from the Russian national championship from 1998 and 1999.

These are Fedor’s international judo results;

1. Moscow International tournament 24/01/1999, 3 place

2. Sofia, Bulgaria, Liberation cup, A-tournament 07/02/1999; 3 place

3. Rotterdam, The Netherlands, Dutch Open Grand prix 01/04’2000; 7th place

Obviously the last result from Dutch Open Grand prix was where he finally failed to qualify for the Olympics’.

And finally here are head to heads international matches from 6 different judo world cups that Fedor fought in;

http://www.judoinside.com/judoka/8554/Fedor_Emelianenko/judo-matches

Alright, I have now presented some hard evidence that shows Fedors judo record, so whats Fedors competitive results from Sport Sambo then, did he even compete at all, what’s his placings?

I'm not sure what you're attempting to demonstrate other than Judo A point level tournaments being searchable and sambo not.

Without getting into the details of the old Soviet sport ranking system, Sportsman, Master of Sport and International Master of Sport and their various classes were and are awarded for various champion ships. Fedor received his Master of Sport in sambo after some of his international competition medals you liated, which is Rooskie for having won a National level title, so he was entering and winning high level sambo and judo competitions at the same time, in his 20s, which is not at all unusual.

What I said regarding sambo and judo being considered pretty much the same thing in training is more or less common knowledge if you've trained in Russia and all the former Soviet States. I was made aware of this when working in Uzbekistan. When training with various national judo squad members in Tashkent. I wanted to do sambo and was told in no uncertain terms that it's all the same thing except for when it's time to train for specific competitions. From what I experienced, it's more or less true.