Judo Attacks In Side the Guard

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by jmay829, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. jmay829

    jmay829 Yellow Belt

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    I'm a BJJ blue belt that has reason started training Judo. 90% of the time when my black belt sensai is in my guard, he attacks submissions instead of passing. He applies americanas, kimuras, and collar chokes all while stacking and smothering my hips to stop arm bars and back takes. He applies an enormous amount of pressure, making it very difficult to counter attack. Is this a common Judo strategy? And is this a legit strategy? Or is it that I should just drill counter his attacks with armbars and back takes more?
     
  2. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    It's not a good strategy. About the only choke that really works from inside the guard is the Ezekiel. You probably just need to get better at counter attacking. Judo guys generally have very good base and a good sense for submissions but not very sophisticated passing so he might just be trying to bait the armbar or triangle to get you to open your legs so he can attack.
     
  3. Thai Otoshi

    Thai Otoshi Gold Belt

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    I do tsukkomi jime ALL the time when in guard, usually if I have trouble passing.

    Best case scenario, I get the choke. Worst case scenario, they break guard to try for a juji or sankaku, and I get an easy guard pass. Depending on who I talk to, it's a bad/decent strategy. I've caught enough guys with it that no one has advised me to stop.
     
  4. Higus

    Higus Gold Belt

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    I used to roll with a former Polish Judo champion who used a lot attacks from inside my guard. The old bastard was mean as hell and knew lots of sneaky wrist locks, arm locks, and chokes from the guard. He would stand up and use his stack and additional leverage to prevent your hip mobility. It wouldn't be a smart strategy for most people, but he had a great sense of balance and was freaky strong and explosive for an older guy. After a while, I realized that it was all just pressure attacks to get me to open my guard so he could pass easier. Now, just because you realize that the submission attempts are just a ruse doesn't mean that you can ignore them.
    As for counters, I wish I could remember what worked well with him. These days I don't play much closed guard anyway, so my first suggestion would be to use a different guard and see how he reacts to that instead. For instance, I'm guessing very few of the tricks he does inside your guard would work if you had a butterfly guard instead. Even having your feet on his hips would limit his offensive options and open up more option for you.
     
  5. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    The real weakness of that is not getting armbarred so much as getting swept overhead or getting your back taken. I think it's also frowned on in BJJ because even if you don't get swept, you're not really proceeding towards passing since it's pretty easy for the bottom guy to neutralize the choke without opening his legs if he knows the method.
     
  6. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It's a much harder strategy to deal with than most BJJ players think. Guys who are good at this will sit there forever trying to work against you from closed guard. They also will kill the hips to neutralize the armbar threat. The downside is that normally nothing happens, you just end up wasting time.

    I do not advise learning that game not because it's easy to counter (it isn't if the guy is good) but because it almost always ends up just being a stalling fest that kills your chance to proceed in newaza. Unless your opponent is substantially weaker and/or less skilled, you are highly unlikely to submit them from their closed guard.

    By comparison, if you are a BJJ player, it is usually quite easy to slice through a judoka's guard. Conversely, judoka are usually tough to submit unless you absolutely crush them with the sub because they have such a 'never say die' attitude on submission defense.

    The best defense against guys like your coach is to play open guard, which most judoka suck at defending. Working submissions against a guy playing closed guard is feasible, working submissions against a guy playing butterfly guard = you are going airborne. Spider, DLR, etc, bring it all on.

    The only time I use submissions within the guard is if a closed guard player is just fighting to death to keep closed guard; some hyperflexible closed guard players are a nightmare to break their guard. In that case, I do love putting a thrust choke on and just absolutely crushing the guy with it, mercilessly. If he wants to just sit in closed guard, I will make it a living hell. Kesting just put out a new video on defending the cross lapel grip in which he shows how he applies this choke; I do it differently, but the idea is the same, just smash that guy through the mat. Like a can openener in reverse (another neglected move within your opponent's guard that is highly effective once you are good at it, albeit illegal in most grappling competition).
     
  7. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    I use this strategy myself sometimes. It tends towards stalling when done in the closed guard.

    Opening your guard will counter this. You create space with your legs to keep the weight off. That is the counter to most pressure games really.
     
  8. Thai Otoshi

    Thai Otoshi Gold Belt

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    So far I've managed to avoid getting swept or subbed in any guard choke attempts.

    I never do it in BJJ though, because last time I tried it, all I kept hearing was "Dude what are you doing? You know you have to pass first!" despite me shrugging off the armbar attempt and nearly getting back control right after.

    I do admit that sometimes I immediately go for it when in guard, to slow things down a bit if I'm feeling gassed at all.
     
  9. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    It's one of those things that's really annoying, but rarely truly threatening. The top guy simply doesn't have enough control of your upper body to prevent you from making small adjustments to take some pressure off. You can almost always turn your head of shrimp a little and avoid actually going out. But it is a great stalling tactic since the counters aren't all that dangerous if you're ready for them.
     
  10. jujijimmy

    jujijimmy Blue Belt

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    If they try and armlock from inside your guard they are asking for a back take.
     
  11. GKY

    GKY Green Belt

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    I actually used to play that game a lot. I have subbed multiple people in bjj competition from inside their own guards. In my experience the best way thing to do is get a buttery hook in since the other guy won't have any base to stop you from rolling him over. You can also arm drag while he's setting it up if you time it right.
     
  12. Russky

    Russky Green Belt

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    This might be difficult.

    [YT]60nfNs48n-Q[/YT]
     
  13. Anthas

    Anthas Yellow Belt

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    I always thought that this kind of attacks were useless... but seeing Machado teach this move is making me think that this may work... it's based on the same principle that we use in the half guard pass using the kimura... maybe with an increased risk of a back take? I don't know what to think....:rolleyes:
     

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