Law Judge Rejects Claim That Man Asked For Consent During Sex Because Nobody Actually Does That

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You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

After a man claimed that he asked for consent at each stage of a sexual encounter, the trial judge rejected his testimony as being too "politically correct."

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2021/2021onca131/2021onca131.html

[50] The trial judge’s first observation about JC’s credibility related to JC’s testimony about his practice in securing consent from HD. The trial judge said:

I found JC’s evidence suspect that on each and every occasion when he and HD had sexual activity, that he very carefully put the question of consent to her, and in all instances only proceeded after he specifically requested consent “at each progressive stage of the sexual encounters”. Defence counsel contended that there was no reason not to believe that, especially in respect of the first alleged assault. However, I did not believe JC’s evidence on that issue, and I found that declaration to be too perfect, too mechanical, too rehearsed, and too politically correct to be believed.

[51] The trial judge continued:

JC wanted me to accept that at each and every stage of each and every sexual encounter, he continuously asked HD if he could go further, but this simply is not in accord with common sense and experience about how sexual encounters unfold.


The Ontario Court of Appeal just ordered a new trial, noting as follows:

[97] The trial judge committed the second error of relying on stereotypical reasoning when he rejected JC’s claimed conduct as “too perfect, too mechanical, too rehearsed, and too politically correct.” The trial judge was invoking a stereotype that people engaged in sexual activity simply do not achieve the “politically correct” ideal of expressly discussing consent to progressive sexual acts. This is a generalization because it purports to be a universal truth and it is prejudicial because it presupposes that no-one would be this careful about consent.

[98] In fact, the behaviour the trial judge rejected as “too perfect”, “too mechanical”, and “too politically correct” to be believed is encouraged by the law, and certainly prudent.
 
Of course none of you actually read the order.

He rejected the claim that he asked for consent because he was actively blackmailing her with video of her.

It's not like these are two people that had normal sex, the girl randomly claimed rape, and then the guy said he asked for consent only to be scorned by the judge for doing so. He was fucking extorting this chick. Setting aside the judge's personal beliefs that the recounting of how he obtained consent was unrealistic, that's not the point.
 
Of course none of you actually read the order.

He rejected the claim that he asked for consent because he was actively blackmailing her with video of her.

It's not like these are two people that had normal sex, the girl randomly claimed rape, and then the guy said he asked for consent only to be scorned by the judge for doing so. He was fucking extorting this chick. Setting aside the judge's personal beliefs that the recounting of how he obtained consent was unrealistic, that's not the point.
What are you talking about? The Order was a new trial based on the errors (as indicated) of the trial judge.
 
[14] What is known is that on January 22, 2015, HD went to JC’s apartment to hang out. At trial, she said this was after she had broken up with her boyfriend, but she had told the police that she believed she was still with him at the time. During that visit, using a “GoPro” camera, JC video recorded HD, in what the Crown aptly referred to as “extreme close-ups”, naked from the waist down, lying in a bed. In this short, 51-second video, HD is actively masturbating. On several occasions, JC prompts HD what to do and she complies. At times, JC can be seen touching her intimately with his hand. The video recording ends suddenly. JC testified that the battery in the camera died. No sexual intercourse is depicted but JC testified that they subsequently had vaginal intercourse.

[15] The Crown theory was that HD was intoxicated into incapacity when this event occurred. The sole direct evidence that HD had consumed an intoxicant was her testimony that she had smoked marijuana, consistent with her daily habit, in an amount that would not cause her to become intoxicated. She may also have had alcohol but was not intoxicated by it. At trial, HD retracted her preliminary inquiry testimony that she and JC had been drinking at a party prior to this event, saying that she had confused two different occasions.

[16] HD testified that she was not feeling drunk or impaired when she arrived at JC’s apartment. She said that she and JC never discussed having sex. She said that JC gave her a glass of water. She testified that as the evening progressed, she began to feel fuzzy and nauseous. She said that the last thing she remembered was talking to JC, she believes on the couch, and then she blacked out. She said she remembered waking up dizzy and disoriented, wearing only a shirt.

[
17] Later in her testimony, despite her earlier evidence that she had blacked out after a conversation on the couch and awoke not wearing pants, HD testified that she remembered JC holding the camera when he began filming her. She also testified that she was aware that she was being filmed. In cross-examination, she testified that although she had no memories of the filmed event when she made her statement to the police or when she testified at the preliminary inquiry, she subsequently recovered memories of the events captured in the video. She also walked back her testimony that JC had given her a glass of water, saying that she had no memory of him doing so and believed, but was not sure, that she poured herself a glass of water from the tap.




 
What are you talking about? The Order was a new trial based on the errors (as indicated) of the trial judge.

The appeals judge was pointing out the logical error in the trial judge's thinking: that one of his premises was conclusory and based on a stereotype, and that one cannot factually dismiss requests for consent on normative bases. The appeals judge is correct that that bit ("common sense" and "experience," etc.) shouldn't have been included in the reasoning. However, the trial judge didn't say, as you are implying, that there is a presumption of coercion over a presumption of express consent. Nor did he say that "nobody actually does that." In actuality, the trial judge's reasoning was based on his evaluation of other circumstantial evidence.
 
Nor did he say that "nobody actually does that."
I was paraphrasing. The actual quote is: "but this simply is not in accord with common sense and experience about how sexual encounters unfold."

That is the functional equivalent of the judge saying, "nobody actually does that."
 
[14] What is known is that on January 22, 2015, HD went to JC’s apartment to hang out. At trial, she said this was after she had broken up with her boyfriend, but she had told the police that she believed she was still with him at the time. During that visit, using a “GoPro” camera, JC video recorded HD, in what the Crown aptly referred to as “extreme close-ups”, naked from the waist down, lying in a bed. In this short, 51-second video, HD is actively masturbating. On several occasions, JC prompts HD what to do and she complies. At times, JC can be seen touching her intimately with his hand. The video recording ends suddenly. JC testified that the battery in the camera died. No sexual intercourse is depicted but JC testified that they subsequently had vaginal intercourse.

[15] The Crown theory was that HD was intoxicated into incapacity when this event occurred. The sole direct evidence that HD had consumed an intoxicant was her testimony that she had smoked marijuana, consistent with her daily habit, in an amount that would not cause her to become intoxicated. She may also have had alcohol but was not intoxicated by it. At trial, HD retracted her preliminary inquiry testimony that she and JC had been drinking at a party prior to this event, saying that she had confused two different occasions.

[16] HD testified that she was not feeling drunk or impaired when she arrived at JC’s apartment. She said that she and JC never discussed having sex. She said that JC gave her a glass of water. She testified that as the evening progressed, she began to feel fuzzy and nauseous. She said that the last thing she remembered was talking to JC, she believes on the couch, and then she blacked out. She said she remembered waking up dizzy and disoriented, wearing only a shirt.

[
17] Later in her testimony, despite her earlier evidence that she had blacked out after a conversation on the couch and awoke not wearing pants, HD testified that she remembered JC holding the camera when he began filming her. She also testified that she was aware that she was being filmed. In cross-examination, she testified that although she had no memories of the filmed event when she made her statement to the police or when she testified at the preliminary inquiry, she subsequently recovered memories of the events captured in the video. She also walked back her testimony that JC had given her a glass of water, saying that she had no memory of him doing so and believed, but was not sure, that she poured herself a glass of water from the tap.




<YeahOKJen><DontBelieve1>
 
JC .... is that the ..... you know .... THE JC? I beleive him.
 
I was paraphrasing. The actual quote is: "but this simply is not in accord with common sense and experience about how sexual encounters unfold."

That is the functional equivalent of the judge saying, "nobody actually does that."

Again, you're taking it out of context. He's saying "nobody actually does that" to the recounting of the progressive permissions on the nth sexual encounter amid the other evidence. Not to the basic concept of asking for consent.

His reasoning is shitty no matter what, but I would tend to agree with him that it's strains belief that this guy, who had had a physical relationship with her before, had aggressively courted her after she broke things off, and who had taken naked videos of her, progressively asked for consent during the claimed rapes. Just on a normative basis, it does sound like he's just making up a checklist for his testimony.
 
JC .... is that the ..... you know .... THE JC? I beleive him.
latest


The JC.
 
Again, you're taking it out of context. He's saying "nobody actually does that" to the recounting of the progressive permissions on the nth sexual encounter amid the other evidence. Not to the basic concept of asking for consent.
Except my thread title says "during sex". "During sex", as opposed to "before sex" implies the consent is being requested during a progressive step.
 
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