Jones vs. Cormier 2 no-contest should be changed back to KO win for Jones

[Mahkor]

They might as well, pos company that the UFC and ESPN are keep using it in their highlights, great way to promote the "sport"

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

It will be soon enough

 

[suffersystem]

Per the new laws, smart guy, he would have received harsher punishments. He couldn't prove that they came from "approved" supplements so he would have been hit with max suspensions.

This is what I thought as well.....

 

[kevinramsdell]

His entire record should be changed to NC as it is obviously clear he has been cheating his entire career.

Not his ENTIRE career but I think for a chunk of his title reign for sure. Jackson's is one of the shadiest gyms out there and they know how important it is for Jones to stay a champion. That's why the gameplan now is to be as cautious as possible and fight on the outside.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Now go get triggered and furiously begin looking up ways in which I'm wrong here.

Says the guy who is so triggered that he wrote all this bullshit

 

[Bobbofull]

Why do Jones fans insist on proving they are just as reprehensible as their hero is?

Pretty sure they get off on being edgy and controversial. Much as they adore Jones for being soooo Alpha when hes being a douche bag. It happens. Some guys are still in: "Oh he told the principal to go fuck himself, hes so cool." Must of us grow out of that behaviour around 13 or 14. The rest claim they "are too honest for my bosses" and therefore not Their fault when they lose their job. the truth is everybody hates the guy who cant function in civilized settings.

Ofc there are exceptions but thats my take on it.

 

[Captain Herb]

Does it really matter? We all know Jones beat Hamill, and we all saw him ko'ing DC.

All I see on his record is a big NC followed by details of fighting on illegal steroids. And that's all future fans will see as well.

 

[Russie]

A Jones apologist would feel this way. Leave it be. All of it including the NC.

 

[DS66]

I'm a Jones and DC fan. I say leave it be. Anyone with a brain knows that Jon has won every MMA fight he's been it, we don't need his record to tell us that. The NC doesn't matter, other than the fact that it would be extremely uncool to DC to change it now.

 

[Bad Karate]

Everybody knows he won who cares?

Jones is still undefeated

 

[Jpenwell14]

I know we've got a healthy supply of pharmaceutical biochemists on here who were probably very disappointed by USADA's heinously corrupt ruling today, but the point remains that had that fight gone down the way it did after today, the result would've remained. If your knee jerk reaction to my opinion is to tell me about how Jon's situation isn't applicable, I suggest you go read the actual policiy changes, along with Jones's drug testing history. He hasn't actually fought with enough of a performance-enhancing substance in his system to have had an unfair advantage. If your argument is that he was surely roiding pre-USADA, then we might as well throw out the record books before then. There's no way of knowing anything. As for the dick pill pop, he didn't actually fight Cormier with the shit in his system, and the stuff he sent in was found to have the offending substances in it. But I guess it doesn't matter because hE'S StIlL A DrUg cHeAt.

I'd say going after shit from his outside life years ago and talking about how he's only beaten mws who happened to be lhw champions at one time is more compelling at this point.

Now go get triggered and furiously begin looking up ways in which I'm wrong here.

Tldr

Here's the deal: jones beat hammill and cormier, fedor never lost to tk, and nick diaz pieced up gomi, 1,2,5 over condit and made anderson silva on dick pills run.

No one gives a shit what the record says. A recent example is people think lawler is a better fighter than askren and fitch should get the first shot at lima. People know what the fuck is up even if they play dumb trolls for their own weirdo reasons.

 

[Bear Trapp]

Lol “it’s clear that even though I was on steroids, if I wasn’t I’d probably still have won, therefore I win”

If Jon Jones wanted to see if he could beat DC clean he would have tried it. Instead he took a risk and it didn’t pay off

 

[datfnguy]

Per the new laws, smart guy, he would have received harsher punishments. He couldn't prove that they came from "approved" supplements so he would have been hit with max suspensions.

He was and he was offered a deal and it was reduced with them saying that although he was flagged it was not for enough of any substance for him to have received any type of advantage from it. This is what spawned the constant testing and reporting and the picogram threads where 80% of Sherdog believe it refers to a thing and not a measurement.

 

[TRUS8888]

This post is a ray of sunshine in an otherwise jealous and delusional world

 

[Pacemaker Joe]

Per the new laws, smart guy, he would have received harsher punishments. He couldn't prove that they came from "approved" supplements so he would have been hit with max suspensions.

He tested under the 0.1ng limit that they're setting for the M3 metabolite, and wouldn't have been suspended at all by USADA. CSAC may still have told him to sit down. His first suspension would still have happened.

There are two major changes that potentially affect cases like Jon's. The first, that everyone seems to be concentrating on, is not penalizing athletes if they test positive because they took a contaminated substance that was certified as clean. This wouldn't change the ruling for Jones because he never found the source of the turinabol, but could have affected the rulings in other supplement cases. The second, which would have meant that Jon's turinabol test never would have been public, let alone count as a failure, is that they're setting lower limits for some substances, below which it's assumed they took something that was contaminated and there was no intent to cheat.

copied and pasted from the UFC's prohibited list (https://ufc.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/UFC-Prohibited-List-2019.pdf):
1. Decision Concentration Levels. Adverse Analytical Findings reported at a concentration below the following Decision Concentration Levels shall be managed by USADA as Atypical Findings.
• Clomiphene: 0.1 ng/mL1
• Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone (DHCMT) long-term metabolite (M3): 0.1 ng/mL
• Hydrochlorothiazide (HCTZ) and metabolites, Torsemide: 20 ng/mL (Out-of-Competition only)
• Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs): 0.1 ng/mL2
• GW-1516 (GW-501516) metabolites: 0.1 ng/mL
• Epitrenbolone (Trenbolone metabolite): 0.2 ng/mL
• Zeranol: 1 ng/mL
• Zilpaterol: 1 ng/mL

Jones's initial failure was below 0.1ng/ml.

Another thing to note is that the UFC has now moved away from the WADA prohibited list, and are using a variant that's based on it. ACs for the most part use the WADA list, so you could end up with Jones being suspended by the NYSAC, say, but not by USADA - the M3 metabolite is still banned at any concentration by WADA. Any suspension like that would be respected by other members of the ABC.

 

[Aaaay1hotsauce]

Everyone’s on juice: Or how I learned to stop caring and accept Jon Jones as the GOAT

 

[dim_]

but the point remains that had that fight gone down the way it did after today, the result would've remained..

How do you presume that? (You arent correct btw)

First up, what is the decision limit for the M3 metabolite under the new rules? And what levels did Jones test positive for in that initial test?

But, just to clear up, the decision limit (threshold) is not a "be below this and its fine", thats not how it works.

Labs report two types of finding, atypical (ATF) and Adverse (AAF).

An AAF is a positive test esentially.

An ATF is considered unusual but it does not automatically mean you get off, with an atypical finding its basically saying you need to do more testing, or conduct an investigation.


So even if Jones M3 levels were below the decision limit (threshold) that does not mean hes automatically cleared,. There still has to be a follow up investigation. depending on the result of that investigation there may (or may not) be a violation.



You have rather misunderstood what the new thresholds mean.

 

[dim_]

The second, which would have meant that Jon's turinabol test never would have been public, let alone count as a failure, is that they're setting lower limits for some substances, below which it's assumed they took something that was contaminated and there was no intent to cheat.

copied and pasted from the UFC's prohibited list (https://ufc.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/UFC-Prohibited-List-2019.pdf):
1. Decision Concentration Levels. Adverse Analytical Findings reported at a concentration below the following Decision Concentration Levels shall be managed by USADA as Atypical Findings.
• Clomiphene: 0.1 ng/mL1
• Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone (DHCMT) long-term metabolite (M3): 0.1 ng/mL
• Hydrochlorothiazide (HCTZ) and metabolites, Torsemide: 20 ng/mL (Out-of-Competition only)
• Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs): 0.1 ng/mL2
• GW-1516 (GW-501516) metabolites: 0.1 ng/mL
• Epitrenbolone (Trenbolone metabolite): 0.2 ng/mL
• Zeranol: 1 ng/mL
• Zilpaterol: 1 ng/mL

Jones's initial failure was below 0.1ng/ml.

But, important to note that being below those limits isnt a free card to skate through, they are still reported as atypical, which still requires an investigation, or further testing.

People are getting the impression that under that threshold means you get a free pass, you dont. it still has to be investigated.

If Jones case happened today, his sample reported as atypical initially, theres still every chance considering the evidence of clean tests etc prior that it would have been considered new ingestion and would have been upgraded to AAF

Another thing to note is that the UFC has now moved away from the WADA prohibited list, and are using a variant that's based on it. ACs for the most part use the WADA list, so you could end up with Jones being suspended by the NYSAC, say, but not by USADA - the M3 metabolite is still banned at any concentration by WADA. Any suspension like that would be respected by other members of the ABC.

WADA have agreed the introduction of decision limits for some substances for the 2021 code. Agreed last week by the management committee. The UFC program is just a year ahead of wada

USADA also brought in the new drugs of abuse rules into the UFC program that wont be in the wada code till 2021

 

[ferrisjso]

I know we've got a healthy supply of pharmaceutical biochemists on here who were probably very disappointed by USADA's heinously corrupt ruling today, but the point remains that had that fight gone down the way it did after today, the result would've remained. If your knee jerk reaction to my opinion is to tell me about how Jon's situation isn't applicable, I suggest you go read the actual policiy changes, along with Jones's drug testing history. He hasn't actually fought with enough of a performance-enhancing substance in his system to have had an unfair advantage. If your argument is that he was surely roiding pre-USADA, then we might as well throw out the record books before then. There's no way of knowing anything. As for the dick pill pop, he didn't actually fight Cormier with the shit in his system, and the stuff he sent in was found to have the offending substances in it. But I guess it doesn't matter because hE'S StIlL A DrUg cHeAt.

I'd say going after shit from his outside life years ago and talking about how he's only beaten mws who happened to be lhw champions at one time is more compelling at this point.

Now go get triggered and furiously begin looking up ways in which I'm wrong here.

I knew Jones was appealing the UFC 214 NC but hadn't heard anything. This is awesome, now I got my beer and popcorn and going to spend the night watching Jones's haters heads explode trying to figure out how he isn't the "natty goat".

This is a beautiful day.

 

[TrueFightFan]

He was and he was offered a deal and it was reduced with them saying that although he was flagged it was not for enough of any substance for him to have received any type of advantage from it. This is what spawned the constant testing and reporting and the picogram threads where 80% of Sherdog believe it refers to a thing and not a measurement.

That wouldn't happen under the new rules. If he couldn't produce a tainted supplement

He tested under the 0.1ng limit that they're setting for the M3 metabolite, and wouldn't have been suspended at all by USADA. CSAC may still have told him to sit down. His first suspension would still have happened.

There are two major changes that potentially affect cases like Jon's. The first, that everyone seems to be concentrating on, is not penalizing athletes if they test positive because they took a contaminated substance that was certified as clean. This wouldn't change the ruling for Jones because he never found the source of the turinabol, but could have affected the rulings in other supplement cases. The second, which would have meant that Jon's turinabol test never would have been public, let alone count as a failure, is that they're setting lower limits for some substances, below which it's assumed they took something that was contaminated and there was no intent to cheat.

copied and pasted from the UFC's prohibited list (https://ufc.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/UFC-Prohibited-List-2019.pdf):
1. Decision Concentration Levels. Adverse Analytical Findings reported at a concentration below the following Decision Concentration Levels shall be managed by USADA as Atypical Findings.
• Clomiphene: 0.1 ng/mL1
• Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone (DHCMT) long-term metabolite (M3): 0.1 ng/mL
• Hydrochlorothiazide (HCTZ) and metabolites, Torsemide: 20 ng/mL (Out-of-Competition only)
• Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs): 0.1 ng/mL2
• GW-1516 (GW-501516) metabolites: 0.1 ng/mL
• Epitrenbolone (Trenbolone metabolite): 0.2 ng/mL
• Zeranol: 1 ng/mL
• Zilpaterol: 1 ng/mL

Jones's initial failure was below 0.1ng/ml.

Another thing to note is that the UFC has now moved away from the WADA prohibited list, and are using a variant that's based on it. ACs for the most part use the WADA list, so you could end up with Jones being suspended by the NYSAC, say, but not by USADA - the M3 metabolite is still banned at any concentration by WADA. Any suspension like that would be respected by other members of the ABC.

Good post but you are wrong about jones not being suspended based on the new "accepted levels". That means that he wouldn't automatically be suspended but would be flagged for additional testing.

It isn't a "just make sure you are below a certain level" clause.