Jones Cheated - How does one simply ignore that?

[Aurelian]

Isn’t Jon also a cheater?

I don't consider any of them cheaters. It's not cheating if 90% of everyone is doing it.

 

[Aurelian]

So, again, this means you actually believe that he staged the whole thing:

1) Willingly submitting himself to enhanced PED testing.
2) Campaigning against PED use and cheating.
3) Offering to pay and take whatever enhanced testing Hendricks agreed upon.
4) Agreed to fight Hendricks even though the latter refused enhanced testing.

All as an elaborate scheme to camouflage the fact that he was, in fact, using PEDs throughout his reign. And even though he had no reason to try proving he wasn't taking steroids, since he never pissed hot, he thought it would be a good idea that, for his last fight, he would drop the juice, get enhanced testing, and fight Hendricks, who refused testing.

That is very coherent...

You accuse people of gullibility, but what you have to believe actually to make your narrative work is actually pretty stupid.

The difference with Jones: he failed two tests for PEDs, for three different banned substances, and had the T levels of a teenage girl in his fight with Cormier.

I don't think it was a rouse, I think it was his own special way of drawing attention to something he recognized as a major problem within the sport. I'm also not buying that because he did that, it makes him completely innocent in any future steroid talks about his career.

He had an obvious roid gut. He had a superhuman like physique in the mid 2000s. He was ultra dominant in the cage. It was common during his time to use steroids. Passing the test was easy. You'd have to be foolish to not exploit a system that's easy to game. Just because he didn't fail a test doesn't mean there aren't other things we can look at to form an opinion.

 

[AstralPanda]

I'm sorry for your mother, for having such a weirdly maladapted manchild. She deserved better.

Yes, GSP and Khabib are wrong, I think, for the reasons I mentioned in my OP.

GSP and Khabib as know as anyone that they’re all on the sauce

At that point, you stop focusing on who is on gear, who isn’t

And start focusing on who the most skilled, talented fighter is

Most fighters have a very realistic stance on steroids or testosterone, that’s why very few actually talk about it.

Whether people like him or not, most fighters say Jones for a reason.

Everyone is on the sauce, there’s only one Jon Jones, nobody has reached that level both in skill and accomplishments and that’s what truly determines who the goat is.

It’s about who the best to ever do it is

 

[Mind Mine]

Khabib has consistently been mentioned as a goat contender even though he doesn’t deserve it.
Anderson cheated just like every other person would after that injury at that age and just like your other heroes did.
GSP believes in alien abduction’s which only his biggest fangals give a shit about and has no bearing on his mma opinion.

FTFY

 

[ledonk]

FTFY

So you agree the man is insane?

 

[Mind Mine]

So you agree the man is insane?

I agree there is an insane unhealthy level of concerning with what fighters say or do outside of mma on this here karate forum

 

[bubbleboyjones]

On paper, Jones' record is undeniably the greatest of all time. But the reality is, he failed drug tests as soon as USADA came along, and there's ample evidence suggesting he had been cheating beforehand. This short video about his T-levels during the first Cormier fight is relatively straightforward, and I haven't seen anyone convincingly dispute this. The residual amount of Turinabol strongly indicates former use, and no one has yet provided a credible explanation of how "tainted supplements" could contain Turinabol, which is not typical.



Jones' performances after he stopped testing positive were undeniably his worst. He had a lackluster showing against OSP, a split decision against Santos that many believe he lost, and a win against Reyes that most think he lost.

One would have to believe that Jones only cheated, which is unrealistic when enhanced testing is involved. And even if one assumes "everyone is on steroids," the fact remains that most of his opponents never tested positive: Gus, for example, lost a razor-close decision that had the media and fans split before enhanced testing was standard. That fight was extremely close, and if Jones had lost it, the discussion would be entirely different. There is good reason to think Jones was, at the time, using performance-enhancing drugs.

Those who claim we can't be certain whether Jones used PEDs are being disingenuous.

This, to me, remains the most compelling argument against considering him the GOAT.

Either your official record counts or it doesn't.

If the official rules of MMA are setup that a failed PED test wipes out your entire record because logically that person has cheated more than once then fine but thats not how it's setup. If you apply special rules to Jones then you gotta retroactively wipe everyone out who's in the list but those are not the rules.

Do I think Jones has used more than what we know. Sure. Do I care? No because the simple fact is passing drug tests does not prove if someone didn't use, it just means the test conducted at that specific time did not detect usage. Think about how many tests Jones probably did pass while hot should be enough of a litmus test it doesn't mean prove you didn't use anything. Someone can have a 20 year clean record thats not proof they didn't use, it's proof the test for that sample didn't detect (or results were ruled in a favorable way).

Its like I have no idea if say Matt Hughes ever used anything. I just know he passed pre-USADA piss tests. If Jones died in a plane crash in 2014 and we talked about him in retrospective I would have the same analysis. It would have been a hall of famer guy, 7 title defenses and pass every pre-USADA piss test and it wouldn't have told me anything if he was actually clean, it just would have told me his samples passed at the time. I look at every fighter the same way and if they fail a test and the comission gives them a NC then thats the offical result.

 

[AstralPanda]

I don't think it was a rouse, I think it was his own special way of drawing attention to something he recognized as a major problem within the sport. I'm also not buying that because he did that, it makes him completely innocent in any future steroid talks about his career.

He had an obvious roid gut. He had a superhuman like physique in the mid 2000s. He was ultra dominant in the cage. It was common during his time to use steroids. Passing the test was easy. You'd have to be foolish to not exploit a system that's easy to game. Just because he didn't fail a test doesn't mean there aren't other things we can look at to speculate.

That call to Keith Kizer by GSP’s team looked pretty suspicious

They had all these questions about what would be tested for

Hendricks said they wanted predetermined times.

So, while they admitted they would do any testing Hendricks wanted, they didn’t go with the wada accredited Salt Lake City lab for some reason, which was an objective, independent facility with no conflicts of interest.

Hendricks had an issue with the seeming conflict of interest between VADA and GSP, he isn’t the first in either boxing or mma to claim this either.

Vada in itself has a shady history, being ran at one point by Victor Conte, who was a major figure in sports associated with some big PED scandals

To me, VADA almost comes off like virtue signalling in a sense, look at how I’m getting ahead of the testing and wanting the best for drug testing in the sport, but in reality it’s damage control and a strong PR move because he was accused throughout his entire career.

There’s always been some strong PR / politician like moves from his camp, I remember when firas and his team claimed he was smaller at MW than he was at WW, even though he was visibly bigger than he’s ever been,

Then other times they claimed he was a small WW throughout his career, when he was consistently one of the biggest WW’s in the division who was anywhere from 187-194 in the cage.

Love GSP, watching a podcast right now where he talks about his recent ayahuasca experience, great guy.

But people just need to take stuff that came from his team with a grain of salt throughout his career with a grain of salt. A lot of PR moves and statements.

 

[krelianx]

Either your official record counts or it doesn't.

If the official rules of MMA are setup that a failed PED test wipes out your entire record because logically that person has cheated more than once then fine but thats not how it's setup. If you apply special rules to Jones then you gotta retroactively wipe everyone out who's in the list but those are not the rules.

Do I think Jones has used more than what we know. Sure. Do I care? No because the simple fact is passing drug tests does not prove if someone didn't use, it just means the test conducted at that specific time did not detect usage. Think about how many tests Jones probably did pass while hot should be enough of a litmus test it doesn't mean prove you didn't use anything. Someone can have a 20 year clean record thats not proof they didn't use, it's proof the test for that sample didn't detect (or results were ruled in a favorable way).

Its like I have no idea if say Matt Hughes ever used anything. I just know he passed pre-USADA piss tests. If Jones died in a plane crash in 2014 and we talked about him in retrospective I would have the same analysis. It would have been a hall of famer guy, 7 title defenses and pass every pre-USADA piss test and it wouldn't have told me anything if he was actually clean, it just would have told me his samples passed at the time. I look at every fighter the same way and if they fail a test and the comission gives them a NC then thats the offical result.

There are no rules for the evaluation of the GOAT, just for how fights are recorded and accepted. Not for the global evaluation of a resume.

I will gladly subtract from the list anyone who has a proven record of cheating. In the case of Jones, the evidence is overwhelming: two failed tests for three substances, and the T-levels of a teenage woman in his fight with Cormier.

That's more than a red flag. With guys that didn't ever piss hot, you certainly leave open the possibility that they cheated and didn't get caught. With Jones' testosterone levels, there is no alternative explanation except castration.

 

[krelianx]

That call to Keith Kizer by GSP’s team looked pretty suspicious

They had all these questions about what would be tested for

Hendricks said they wanted predetermined times.

So, while they admitted they would do any testing Hendricks wanted, they didn’t go with the wada accredited Salt Lake City lab for some reason, which was an objective, independent facility with no conflicts of interest.

Hendricks had an issue with the seeming conflict of interest between VADA and GSP, he isn’t the first in either boxing or mma to claim this either.

Vada in itself has a shady history, being ran at one point by Victor Conte, who was a major figure in sports associated with some big PED scandals

To me, VADA almost comes off like virtue signalling in a sense, look at how I’m getting ahead of the testing and wanting the best for drug testing in the sport, but in reality it’s damage control and a strong PR move because he was accused throughout his entire career.

There’s always been some strong PR / politician like moves from his camp, I remember when firas and his team claimed he was smaller at MW than he was at WW, even though he was visibly bigger than he’s ever been,

Then other times they claimed he was a small WW throughout his career, when he was consistently one of the biggest WW’s in the division who was anywhere from 187-194 in the cage.

Love GSP, watching a podcast right now where he talks about his recent ayahuasca experience, great guy.

But people just need to take stuff that came from his team with a grain of salt throughout his career with a grain of salt. A lot of PR moves and statements.

You are completely deforming the story.

Rodolphe Beaulieu published the correspondences with Kizer. This was the last e-mail that Rodolphe sent to Kizer. The fight was in November 16, the last email was August 17th.:

"From: Rodolphe Beaulieu

Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 6:52 PM

To: Keith Kizer

Cc: Michael Mersch; Firas; Ted

Subject: Re: RE:



Hello all,

We spoke with Georges today and he took his decision so for your information, Georges has decided that if Johny Hendricks does not want to do VADA and prefers your proposed enhanced steroid and drug testing by the Nevada Athletic Commission, Georges will also do it, in addition to VADA.

I will be out of the office without access to email or voicemail until Aug. 27th but in the meantime, please provide us with all documentation, a detailed invoice and payment instructions necessary to proceed with such enhanced steroid and drug testing by the Commission.



Best regards

Rodolphe"

Kizer never responded to the email. This went uncontested by Kizer. Instead, he declared in an interview that he thought the request was unreasonable.

"For Kizer, the 10 days when Beaulieu would be out of the office was too much, despite his request that during that time the NSAC provide the documentation, invoice and how to pay for the enhanced testing. The testing was off."

Rodolphe asked for method of payment and said Georges agreed to any testing in addition to VADA. He was going to be out of the office for 10 days and asked for information for payment and documentation.

GSP ended up getting enhanced testing. And Hendricks, not.

That's the story.

 

[Ashen One]

1) In his prime era everybody used.
2) Steroids don't magically click you into God mode. You still have to win fights.
3) You still have to have GOAT level traits to be considered one. Good fight IQ, good chin, able to fight through adversity, etc. Jon has those things too.

1) That's an assumption, not a fact. MM and GSP never failed a test, nor did most of Jon's opponents. You can speculate.
2) They don't have to make you "God", they can give you an advantage and that's enough. If one compares the relative performance of athletes that knowingly used PEDs, before and after their use, the outcome is extremely evident: Bigfoot, Ellenberger, Henderson, TJ, Overeem... Cheating is cheating.
3) Nobody doubts his skills.

 

[TaxCutz]

On paper, Jones' record is undeniably the greatest of all time. But the reality is, he failed drug tests as soon as USADA came along, and there's ample evidence suggesting he had been cheating beforehand. This short video about his T-levels during the first Cormier fight is relatively straightforward, and I haven't seen anyone convincingly dispute this. The residual amount of Turinabol strongly indicates former use, and no one has yet provided a credible explanation of how "tainted supplements" could contain Turinabol, which is not typical.



Jones' performances after he stopped testing positive were undeniably his worst. He had a lackluster showing against OSP, a split decision against Santos that many believe he lost, and a win against Reyes that most think he lost.

One would have to believe that Jones only cheated, which is unrealistic when enhanced testing is involved. And even if one assumes "everyone is on steroids," the fact remains that most of his opponents never tested positive: Gus, for example, lost a razor-close decision that had the media and fans split before enhanced testing was standard. That fight was extremely close, and if Jones had lost it, the discussion would be entirely different. There is good reason to think Jones was, at the time, using performance-enhancing drugs.

Those who claim we can't be certain whether Jones used PEDs are being disingenuous.

This, to me, remains the most compelling argument against considering him the GOAT.

Protected class. Also propped up for more diverse viewership. Just a hunch.

 

[bubbleboyjones]

There are no rules for the evaluation of the GOAT, just for how fights are recorded and accepted. Not for the global evaluation of a resume.

I will gladly subtract from the list anyone who has a proven record of cheating. In the case of Jones, the evidence is overwhelming: two failed tests for three substances, and the T-levels of a teenage woman in his fight with Cormier.

That's more than a red flag. With guys that didn't ever piss hot, you certainly leave open the possibility that they cheated and didn't get caught. With Jones' testosterone levels, there is no alternative explanation except castration.

Correct GOAT is a arbitrary topic which is why i preface this with my first sentence when having this discussion "Either your official record counts or it doesn't."


If you don't count the official record and remove their entire body of work because of PED failure(s) then thats a different conversation and obviously you can't count Jones among other fighters like Silva.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

It’s really quite elementary for those of us that don’t walk in fear of what a coward has to say. It’s nothing to me to say Jon Jones career had the most impressive display of mma skill because it’s a fact from what I’ve seen. Anyone here for that probably has Jones greatest ever. You likely live in fear of the judgement of cowards or one have created a reality full of rules that don’t exust and losses that never occurred to make believe one man didn’t do it the best. It’s coward business and anyone that calls you on your delusion must be a low life. Do you understand howstupid that sounds son?

A clearer case of projection I have never seen.

I wont deny that jones was very skilled, but since he is a proven cheater, we can never know if he really was the goat. Unless its the goat of cheating we are talking about.

Also what is all this wish wash about fear of cowards and judgement? you sound like you just read something that went straight over your head, and now you are trying to replicate it and sound smart.

 

[Stun Gun]

Most people don’t ignore it

 

[Mind Mine]

A clearer case of projection I have never seen.

I wont deny that jones was very skilled, but since he is a proven cheater, we can never know if he really was the goat. Unless its the goat of cheating we are talking about.

Also what is all this wish wash about fear of cowards and judgement? you sound like you just read something that went straight over your head, and now you are trying to replicate it and sound smart.

Yet in still the legends of the sport are well aware he tested positive yet name him greatest. Almost unanimously. Yet here you are trying to weasel any reason they are wrong when it defies the company, the record book, as well as reality. You literally wake up every day and put on galoshes in the dead of summer and scream it’s raining to avoid the reality one man caused your sensibilities. Cowardice is being afraid of the injury Jones caused your psyche to the point you create false realities of rules that never existed. You buried yourself so deep in that psychosis that you are literally terrified to tell your buds hey bro Jones did the most in the octagon and if the GOATS call him King who an I. It would be therapeutic for you I swear

 

[krelianx]

Yet in still the legends of the sport are well aware he tested positive yet name him greatest. Almost unanimously. Yet here you are trying to weasel any reason they are wrong when it defies the company, the record book, as well as reality. You literally wake up every day and put on galoshes in the dead of summer and scream it’s raining to avoid the reality one man caused your sensibilities. Cowardice is being afraid of the injury Jones caused your psyche to the point you create false realities of rules that never existed. You buried yourself so deep in that psychosis that you are literally terrified to tell your buds hey bro Jones did the most in the octagon and if the GOATS call him King who an I. It would be therapeutic for you I swear

You do know you sound insane, right?

 

[Mind Mine]

You do know you sound insane, right?

Bitch how do you sound while typing? Like tap tap tap? Bitch how did you hear me? Shut up. Go away

 

[krelianx]

Bitch how do you sound while typing? Like tap tap tap? Bitch how did you hear me? Shut up. Go away

How old are you?

 

[USA!USA!]

It's because he's never truly lost

It is like if Barry Bonds was on roids and cheated.. came back after testing positive, tested clean and still hit 70 HRs

No one really cares, he was always the best even without them