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I don't consider any of them cheaters. It's not cheating if 90% of everyone is doing it.Isn’t Jon also a cheater?
I don't consider any of them cheaters. It's not cheating if 90% of everyone is doing it.Isn’t Jon also a cheater?
I don't think it was a rouse, I think it was his own special way of drawing attention to something he recognized as a major problem within the sport. I'm also not buying that because he did that, it makes him completely innocent in any future steroid talks about his career.So, again, this means you actually believe that he staged the whole thing:
1) Willingly submitting himself to enhanced PED testing.
2) Campaigning against PED use and cheating.
3) Offering to pay and take whatever enhanced testing Hendricks agreed upon.
4) Agreed to fight Hendricks even though the latter refused enhanced testing.
All as an elaborate scheme to camouflage the fact that he was, in fact, using PEDs throughout his reign. And even though he had no reason to try proving he wasn't taking steroids, since he never pissed hot, he thought it would be a good idea that, for his last fight, he would drop the juice, get enhanced testing, and fight Hendricks, who refused testing.
That is very coherent...
You accuse people of gullibility, but what you have to believe actually to make your narrative work is actually pretty stupid.
The difference with Jones: he failed two tests for PEDs, for three different banned substances, and had the T levels of a teenage girl in his fight with Cormier.
GSP and Khabib as know as anyone that they’re all on the sauceI'm sorry for your mother, for having such a weirdly maladapted manchild. She deserved better.
Yes, GSP and Khabib are wrong, I think, for the reasons I mentioned in my OP.
FTFYKhabib has consistently been mentioned as a goat contender even though he doesn’t deserve it.
Anderson cheated just like every other person would after that injury at that age and just like your other heroes did.
GSP believes in alien abduction’s which only his biggest fangals give a shit about and has no bearing on his mma opinion.
So you agree the man is insane?FTFY
I agree there is an insane unhealthy level of concerning with what fighters say or do outside of mma on this here karate forumSo you agree the man is insane?
On paper, Jones' record is undeniably the greatest of all time. But the reality is, he failed drug tests as soon as USADA came along, and there's ample evidence suggesting he had been cheating beforehand. This short video about his T-levels during the first Cormier fight is relatively straightforward, and I haven't seen anyone convincingly dispute this. The residual amount of Turinabol strongly indicates former use, and no one has yet provided a credible explanation of how "tainted supplements" could contain Turinabol, which is not typical.
Jones' performances after he stopped testing positive were undeniably his worst. He had a lackluster showing against OSP, a split decision against Santos that many believe he lost, and a win against Reyes that most think he lost.
One would have to believe that Jones only cheated, which is unrealistic when enhanced testing is involved. And even if one assumes "everyone is on steroids," the fact remains that most of his opponents never tested positive: Gus, for example, lost a razor-close decision that had the media and fans split before enhanced testing was standard. That fight was extremely close, and if Jones had lost it, the discussion would be entirely different. There is good reason to think Jones was, at the time, using performance-enhancing drugs.
Those who claim we can't be certain whether Jones used PEDs are being disingenuous.
This, to me, remains the most compelling argument against considering him the GOAT.
That call to Keith Kizer by GSP’s team looked pretty suspiciousI don't think it was a rouse, I think it was his own special way of drawing attention to something he recognized as a major problem within the sport. I'm also not buying that because he did that, it makes him completely innocent in any future steroid talks about his career.
He had an obvious roid gut. He had a superhuman like physique in the mid 2000s. He was ultra dominant in the cage. It was common during his time to use steroids. Passing the test was easy. You'd have to be foolish to not exploit a system that's easy to game. Just because he didn't fail a test doesn't mean there aren't other things we can look at to speculate.
Either your official record counts or it doesn't.
If the official rules of MMA are setup that a failed PED test wipes out your entire record because logically that person has cheated more than once then fine but thats not how it's setup. If you apply special rules to Jones then you gotta retroactively wipe everyone out who's in the list but those are not the rules.
Do I think Jones has used more than what we know. Sure. Do I care? No because the simple fact is passing drug tests does not prove if someone didn't use, it just means the test conducted at that specific time did not detect usage. Think about how many tests Jones probably did pass while hot should be enough of a litmus test it doesn't mean prove you didn't use anything. Someone can have a 20 year clean record thats not proof they didn't use, it's proof the test for that sample didn't detect (or results were ruled in a favorable way).
Its like I have no idea if say Matt Hughes ever used anything. I just know he passed pre-USADA piss tests. If Jones died in a plane crash in 2014 and we talked about him in retrospective I would have the same analysis. It would have been a hall of famer guy, 7 title defenses and pass every pre-USADA piss test and it wouldn't have told me anything if he was actually clean, it just would have told me his samples passed at the time. I look at every fighter the same way and if they fail a test and the comission gives them a NC then thats the offical result.
That call to Keith Kizer by GSP’s team looked pretty suspicious
They had all these questions about what would be tested for
Hendricks said they wanted predetermined times.
So, while they admitted they would do any testing Hendricks wanted, they didn’t go with the wada accredited Salt Lake City lab for some reason, which was an objective, independent facility with no conflicts of interest.
Hendricks had an issue with the seeming conflict of interest between VADA and GSP, he isn’t the first in either boxing or mma to claim this either.
Vada in itself has a shady history, being ran at one point by Victor Conte, who was a major figure in sports associated with some big PED scandals
To me, VADA almost comes off like virtue signalling in a sense, look at how I’m getting ahead of the testing and wanting the best for drug testing in the sport, but in reality it’s damage control and a strong PR move because he was accused throughout his entire career.
There’s always been some strong PR / politician like moves from his camp, I remember when firas and his team claimed he was smaller at MW than he was at WW, even though he was visibly bigger than he’s ever been,
Then other times they claimed he was a small WW throughout his career, when he was consistently one of the biggest WW’s in the division who was anywhere from 187-194 in the cage.
Love GSP, watching a podcast right now where he talks about his recent ayahuasca experience, great guy.
But people just need to take stuff that came from his team with a grain of salt throughout his career with a grain of salt. A lot of PR moves and statements.
1) In his prime era everybody used.
2) Steroids don't magically click you into God mode. You still have to win fights.
3) You still have to have GOAT level traits to be considered one. Good fight IQ, good chin, able to fight through adversity, etc. Jon has those things too.
1) That's an assumption, not a fact. MM and GSP never failed a test, nor did most of Jon's opponents. You can speculate.
2) They don't have to make you "God", they can give you an advantage and that's enough. If one compares the relative performance of athletes that knowingly used PEDs, before and after their use, the outcome is extremely evident: Bigfoot, Ellenberger, Henderson, TJ, Overeem... Cheating is cheating.
3) Nobody doubts his skills.
On paper, Jones' record is undeniably the greatest of all time. But the reality is, he failed drug tests as soon as USADA came along, and there's ample evidence suggesting he had been cheating beforehand. This short video about his T-levels during the first Cormier fight is relatively straightforward, and I haven't seen anyone convincingly dispute this. The residual amount of Turinabol strongly indicates former use, and no one has yet provided a credible explanation of how "tainted supplements" could contain Turinabol, which is not typical.
Jones' performances after he stopped testing positive were undeniably his worst. He had a lackluster showing against OSP, a split decision against Santos that many believe he lost, and a win against Reyes that most think he lost.
One would have to believe that Jones only cheated, which is unrealistic when enhanced testing is involved. And even if one assumes "everyone is on steroids," the fact remains that most of his opponents never tested positive: Gus, for example, lost a razor-close decision that had the media and fans split before enhanced testing was standard. That fight was extremely close, and if Jones had lost it, the discussion would be entirely different. There is good reason to think Jones was, at the time, using performance-enhancing drugs.
Those who claim we can't be certain whether Jones used PEDs are being disingenuous.
This, to me, remains the most compelling argument against considering him the GOAT.
There are no rules for the evaluation of the GOAT, just for how fights are recorded and accepted. Not for the global evaluation of a resume.
I will gladly subtract from the list anyone who has a proven record of cheating. In the case of Jones, the evidence is overwhelming: two failed tests for three substances, and the T-levels of a teenage woman in his fight with Cormier.
That's more than a red flag. With guys that didn't ever piss hot, you certainly leave open the possibility that they cheated and didn't get caught. With Jones' testosterone levels, there is no alternative explanation except castration.
A clearer case of projection I have never seen.It’s really quite elementary for those of us that don’t walk in fear of what a coward has to say. It’s nothing to me to say Jon Jones career had the most impressive display of mma skill because it’s a fact from what I’ve seen. Anyone here for that probably has Jones greatest ever. You likely live in fear of the judgement of cowards or one have created a reality full of rules that don’t exust and losses that never occurred to make believe one man didn’t do it the best. It’s coward business and anyone that calls you on your delusion must be a low life. Do you understand howstupid that sounds son?
Yet in still the legends of the sport are well aware he tested positive yet name him greatest. Almost unanimously. Yet here you are trying to weasel any reason they are wrong when it defies the company, the record book, as well as reality. You literally wake up every day and put on galoshes in the dead of summer and scream it’s raining to avoid the reality one man caused your sensibilities. Cowardice is being afraid of the injury Jones caused your psyche to the point you create false realities of rules that never existed. You buried yourself so deep in that psychosis that you are literally terrified to tell your buds hey bro Jones did the most in the octagon and if the GOATS call him King who an I. It would be therapeutic for you I swearA clearer case of projection I have never seen.
I wont deny that jones was very skilled, but since he is a proven cheater, we can never know if he really was the goat. Unless its the goat of cheating we are talking about.
Also what is all this wish wash about fear of cowards and judgement? you sound like you just read something that went straight over your head, and now you are trying to replicate it and sound smart.
Yet in still the legends of the sport are well aware he tested positive yet name him greatest. Almost unanimously. Yet here you are trying to weasel any reason they are wrong when it defies the company, the record book, as well as reality. You literally wake up every day and put on galoshes in the dead of summer and scream it’s raining to avoid the reality one man caused your sensibilities. Cowardice is being afraid of the injury Jones caused your psyche to the point you create false realities of rules that never existed. You buried yourself so deep in that psychosis that you are literally terrified to tell your buds hey bro Jones did the most in the octagon and if the GOATS call him King who an I. It would be therapeutic for you I swear
Bitch how do you sound while typing? Like tap tap tap? Bitch how did you hear me? Shut up. Go awayYou do know you sound insane, right?
Bitch how do you sound while typing? Like tap tap tap? Bitch how did you hear me? Shut up. Go away