Jones: better or worse than he seems?

[moreorless87]

well Shogun was 29 defeated the undefeated Machida.
Rashad had 1 career loss (to champ)
Lyoto had 1 career loss (to champ)
Rampage was 32 and recent champ
TRT Vitor was in his 3rd prime.
Gus had 1 career loss.

All but Gus are HOF and I know I know, 1 loss they were over the hill at that point

Shogun was coming off of a 3rd ACL surgery though and showed the same terrible cardio he did in his comeback with Coleman, after the first 4 mins(which were hardly a beatdown) he was basically out of that fight entirely and whilst he looked a bit better in following fights with more recovery he never looked close to his form against Lyoto again IMHO.

Rashad I do think he was pretty close to his peak there.

Lyoto again not too far off peak, confidence damaged post Shogun but not showing physical decline.

Rampage had I think been on the decline for awhile before that, looked poor against Rashad and got a gift decision against Lyoto.

TRT Vitor perhaps but not Hooft Vitor, none of the dangerous kicks he built his comeback on which was of course at MW.

The idea of Jones as a total beast who blasts though opponents was IMHO based on fights like Shogun and Vera which it was much easier to come across that way.

 

[BlessedSoldier]

"All the close wins"? There's Santos and Gus 1. That's two. You could say DC 1 was close, but it was still a clear win for Jones. And DC 2, seriously? You count a win by ko in the 3rd as a close fight?

That's 2 (or 3) close fights out of 26.

Oh, and Khabib vs Tibau was pretty much as close as Santos and Gus vs Jones.

DC 1 and 2 were close. The second fight DC was winning until the head kick. Either way you’re acting as if Jones didn’t have a PED advantage

 

[No Skill Gap]

I should have given you guys my view.

@Dbreiden83080

Jones physicality is in the top 3-7 range, he's no longer the most physically imposing guy at his weight class. But he's always been a student of the sport. I think his high skill level and excellent game planning is keeping him alive.

But any day now, an up and comer is gonna really hurt him. Maybe not this year, but the next I think he will get his first loss.

Your title says "Is Jones better or worse than he seems" and you compared him to Khabib implying that the latter is better because Jones doesn't dominate or finish fights.

1. That is only recent, Jones used to murder people, not just people...legends. He was murdering Shogun, a ~prime Machida, Rampage, Evans, TRT Belfort (MW but still), Bonnar + Bader + the Janitor early on, etc. Prior to beating DC twice, who's a way better fighter than anyone Khabib has faced outside of McGregor...who isn't as good as DC due to his lack of wrestling imo.

2. I went back and looked...honestly Khabib probably lost that Tibau fight. I remember thinking it was a robbery.

http://mmadecisions.com/decision/3577/Khabib-Nurmagomedov-vs-Gleison-Tibau

The judges must have been that woman bird whatever her name is, just horrible judges to give 10-9s across for Khabib when the entire MMA media agreed it was a 30-27 for Tibau and one site scored it 29-28 for Khabib. Just a bit suspect to me, but whatever.

Jones has never looked that mortal outside of Gus I, where he was partying and underestimated his opponent probably.

You say intangibles...what does that even mean? Jones has a high fight IQ, he's game, he wants to win enough to get his arm broken or fight on a sideways toe. The only thing going against Jon Jones from being the clear cut greatest MMA fighter to ever do it is the steroids/PEDs whih at this point...it seems he's likely guilty of using. Regardless even with PED use he's a GOAT tier fighter, he's dominated and never lost (beating the shit out of Hamill is not a loss).

I realize Khabib hasn't lost either but I don't think the resume' stacks up and he's had 3 title fights: Iaquinta for the belt, defending vs McGregor and Porier. I feel like...stylistically those are 3 easy ass fights for him really. One great win, one ~good win, and one eh kind of a joke win (for a title).

 

[Dave Henderson]

Jones is getting OLD. He is older than his years and there is no reason to believe he isn't still pico gramming and coking out.

You cannot get away with drinking/partying/drugs and getting older without it showing eventually. Even some younger people look like shit (Lindsey Lohan) from too much. And that is at a young age. No matter how good you - are that stuff takes it's toll. Jones is also a 2 faced sociopathic liar with no honor. That also takes its toll on someones psyche over time.

If Jones is still using drugs, overlooks Reyes, and doesn't take his PEDS - he absolutely will lose.

Jones weakness has been exposed by Santos - calf kicks.

 

[BlessedSoldier]

He’s on PEDS so no

 

[ermac88]

Shogun was coming off of a 3rd ACL surgery though and showed the same terrible cardio he did in his comeback with Coleman, after the first 4 mins(which were hardly a beatdown) he was basically out of that fight entirely and whilst he looked a bit better in following fights with more recovery he never looked close to his form against Lyoto again IMHO.

Rashad I do think he was pretty close to his peak there.

Lyoto again not too far off peak, confidence damaged post Shogun but not showing physical decline.

Rampage had I think been on the decline for awhile before that, looked poor against Rashad and got a gift decision against Lyoto.

TRT Vitor perhaps but not Hooft Vitor, none of the dangerous kicks he built his comeback on which was of course at MW.

The idea of Jones as a total beast who blasts though opponents was IMHO based on fights like Shogun and Vera which it was much easier to come across that way.

this is just a bunch of revisionist history.
Shogun achieved his greatest career accolade at 29. "I'm in the best shape of my life" his words.
All these other guys had only lost to newly crowned champs.

they were all favored to kill the Jones hype train according to the poles here.

he smashed them, and they were out of their primes, like everyone he's smashed

 

[Dave Henderson]

**** correction -

When I say Jones is getting old ... I'm talking about is biological age.... Not his numerical age.

 

[Private Whatley]

Jones has fourteen title fights. Khabib has three. Yes, Khabib has been wrecking his opponents thus far but so did Jones when he first won the title. Jones has fought every type of opponent while Khabib has feasted predominantly on strikers. If Khabib sticks around long enough to have fourteen title fights, I’ll bet anything that he’ll face some adversity in at least a couple of those fights.

 

[Dave Henderson]

Jones has fourteen title fights. Khabib has three..

Irrelevant. Khabib was black balled by Dana.

Khabib was 26-0 before his first title fight which indicates severe UFC corruption.

 

[PulsingJones]

Jones has gone to wars with multiple opponents, barely surviving.

Khabib's fights are purely a one sided beatdown, in a much more stacked and athletic division. (Don't bring up Tibau because he was juiced to the gills and didn't really do anything that fight)

I think Jones is currently GOAT, even despite the PED and cheating, but OP's question is about dominance, and Khabib's run is way more dominant by a country mile

 

[KING BONES]

in all honesty jones is just beginning to enter his prime

 

[SKYNET]

...DC 2 I had DC up before the KO. And headkick KOs are a little fluke-ish...

don't stretch, you might just destroy your whole argument

 

[moreorless87]

this is just a bunch of revisionist history.
Shogun achieved his greatest career accolade at 29. "I'm in the best shape of my life" his words.
All these other guys had only lost to newly crowned champs.

they were all favored to kill the Jones hype train according to the poles here.

he smashed them, and they were out of their primes, like everyone he's smashed

Is a fighter ever going to say "I'm in terrible shape"? if you watch that fight honestly its basically Jones takes Shogun down early, controls him without doing a ton of damage and then Shogun is badly gassed when he gets up 4 mins latter, the rest of the fight is just shooting fish in a barrel.

Again look at Shogun's comeback against Coleman and how much worse he looked than a few months latter, at least then he recovered to close to full form though were as post 3rd ACL sugery he never did have much more limited mobility.

Jones is a great fight but the idea of Beast Jones blowing though opponents was based on a few favourable matchups, fights like Rashad were more the real Jones that we've seen since.

 

[Sansnom]

When I look at a champ like Khabib, I see complete and utter dominance. He makes guys quit in the ring, and makes it look easy. His wrestling is so damn good that I can't see any other lw on the planet beating him, other than with a fluke KO.

Jones, on the other hand, has a significant amount of very close wins.

DC 1 was a slugfest, with neither fighter looking great by the end. DC 2 was a close match up until the KO (hell DC might have even been winning until that point).

OSP fight was unimpressive. Santos fight was very close, and the guys legs were shot. Gus 1 was very close. Gus 2 jones had a great game plan for, so I'll give him that one.

With all these close wins, is Jon overrated / lucky ? He clearly isn't very dominant. Other than Gus 2, I haven't seen him put on a Khabib style one sided beatdown in a while.

Or is all of this on purpose? As he leaves his athletic prime, maybe he has just adopted a much more careful and meticulous style (like Kobe in his 30s), meaning he is content to get the close wins ? Maybe he is just that good and all this is part of the plan?

Which one is it?

You can't always be dominant and win impressively in every championship fight. Especially when you've been doing it for so long.

The fact that he's still around and still champ is impressive enough.

Khabib is still a young champ. Recency bias. Jones was just as dominant in his early years when he won the title. Just like GSP was, or Silva was. Except Khabib hasn't reached that point of his career yet.

 

[Iroh]

Definitely, by and large, overrated.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Shogun was coming off of a 3rd ACL surgery though and showed the same terrible cardio he did in his comeback with Coleman, after the first 4 mins(which were hardly a beatdown) he was basically out of that fight entirely and whilst he looked a bit better in following fights with more recovery he never looked close to his form against Lyoto again IMHO.

Rashad I do think he was pretty close to his peak there.

Lyoto again not too far off peak, confidence damaged post Shogun but not showing physical decline.

Rampage had I think been on the decline for awhile before that, looked poor against Rashad and got a gift decision against Lyoto.

TRT Vitor perhaps but not Hooft Vitor, none of the dangerous kicks he built his comeback on which was of course at MW.

The idea of Jones as a total beast who blasts though opponents was IMHO based on fights like Shogun and Vera which it was much easier to come across that way.

Disagree with the last part, this is why Jones was considered a total beast and a killer:

Finished Jake O'Brien in the 2nd round (Guillotine), Murdered Matt Hamill almost made him blind and deaf in 1 round, Kills Vera, Matyushenko via elbow death, Bader via Guillotine death round 2, TKO Shogun, RNC strangled Rampage, standing guillotine murders Machida.

Those were consecutive. 8 dominant finishes in a row.

Then he decision'd but dominated Evans, and then finished Belfort and Sonnen too...sure MWs really but that makes 10/11 fights finished in vicious fashion. And since that point he's had 6 decisions out of 8 fights, and the Gus II finish didn't feel particularly dominant / vicious, it was much more methodical than earlier Jones.

Edit: Here's another crispy fact - Jones has 10 finishes in the UFC, 12 if you count Hamill and DC...so really 12. Khabib has 6.

 

[moreorless87]

Disagree with the last part, this is why Jones was considered a total beast and a killer:

Finished Jake O'Brien in the 2nd round (Guillotine), Murdered Matt Hamill almost made him blind and deaf in 1 round, Kills Vera, Matyushenko via elbow death, Bader via Guillotine death round 2, TKO Shogun, RNC strangled Rampage, standing guillotine murders Machida.

Those were consecutive. 8 dominant finishes in a row.

Then he decision'd but dominated Evans, and then finished Belfort and Sonnen too...sure MWs really but that makes 10/11 fights finished in vicious fashion. And since that point he's had 6 decisions out of 8 fights, and the Gus II finish didn't feel particularly dominant / vicious, it was much more methodical than earlier Jones.

In retrospect though those are all opponents venerable to being destroyed like that, not normally Shogun but a badly gassed Shogun certainly. We saw Vera's vulnerability on the ground many times afterwards, O.Brien got the same treatment from Moose, etc.

Jones can press home a vulnerability and finish fast but against opponents who don't offer that he's generally had to win slower more tactical fights ala Rampage/Rashad. That's I think the real Jones not the destroyer of his early hype.

 

[Sansnom]

Khabib now is at the same stage GSP was back when he beat Jon Fitch and BJ Penn 2.. Early championship years. Completely beat the shit out of his opponent.

Or like Jones was when he beat the shit out of Rampage, Machida etc..

But eventually all fighters slow down. So will Khabib.

Comparing Khabib to Jones now is stupid. Jones has been on top for so much longer.

You can't expect a fighter to be as dominant forever.

 

[Cylence]

This is somewhat selective reasoning. While I don't necessarily disagree with it in the terms that you put it, I believe it's unfair to compare them at this point in their careers.

A more fair comparison would be Jones' 2011/2012/2013 when he first became champion and light heavyweight was the most stacked division, compared to Khabib's 2017/2018/2019 when he first became champion and when lightweight was the most stacked division.

But, to answer your question, I believe Jones is better than he seems, even at this stage. He can turn up the heat and pull it out of the bag when shit gets serious like him soundly winning the final round against both Gus and Santos, or when he feels like his throne is in jeopardy like in Gus II and DC II.

Also, I'd also like to point out that Jones, for the post part, is fighting his opponents where they want to fight him, and still winning. He'll strike at range if that's what you want, he'll oblige if you want to wrestle, and if you want to lay on the cage, he'll come in on you. And, while there's absolutely nothing wrong with fighting your fight and sticking to your bread and butter, I don't believe Khabib would be undefeated if he fought to most of his opponents strengths.

 

[Private Whatley]

Irrelevant. Khabib was black balled by Dana.

Khabib was 26-0 before his first title fight which indicates severe UFC corruption.

Jones fought seven times in the UFC before receiving his first title fight and he only got that fight because Rashad Evans blew out his ACL. Khabib fought nine times before getting his first title shot and that’s due largely in part to his being injury-saddled for long periods of time. Let’s not forget that he didn’t fight for two years after dominating RDA.