Joint manipulation on standup

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by VagabondMusashi, Jul 12, 2005.

  1. VagabondMusashi

    VagabondMusashi Banned Banned

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    I feel that most standup fighters nowadays practice Muay Thai ( those who started somewhat recently) because it IS very effective and because of how it is displayed in MMA : kickng ass. I can
     
  2. daigoro

    daigoro I'll see you in heII!!!

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    Um the lack of joint manipulation techinques probably has something to do with how they wear boxing gloves.
     
  3. Fzubek

    Fzubek Brown Belt

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    And even on the street, my fists are clenched, so as I punch try to break one of my fingers and you get cocked with the other hand. It doesnt really work
     
  4. Gregster

    Gregster Black Belt

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    My TKD instructor had a prolific knowledge of Hapkido (proper, old-school TKD instruction has plenty of this in the curriculum), and during his years working as a bouncer he ended the vast majority of his violent encounters using joint/wrist locks. They give you much more latitude in the amount of force you apply and injury you inflict than punching or kicking someone, they're great for de-escalating a violent confrontation, and saves a lot of time and hassle when the cops arrive compared to dealing with them when you kick the ever-loving shit out of someone.

    So I'm a big proponent of them. Aikido is okay too, but in my opinion far too passive for many street encounters which can be ended more quickly, with less injury, pre-emptively vs. having to wait to get attacked.
     
  5. ziggs

    ziggs Blue Belt

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  6. AgentZ

    AgentZ Blue Belt

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    A good underhook can be an easy and effective joint manipulation.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Brazilian HKD

    Brazilian HKD Brown Belt

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    strict wrist locks are more suitd for self defense, most people say that they dont work, but even bas rutten and the gracies teach them for street situations

    in an engaged opponent it's really hard to make them work

    luckily as a hkd guy, you can do some standing subs (without gloves) subbing the elbow, the shoulder and the neck
    the secret is the clinch , a distraction (a knee), and the execution, underhooks and underhooks counters

    kimuras, guillotines, inversed standing armbar, cow hows are a great shortcuts to finish a fight, but are really dangerous because the control of the opponent is lacked, gravity does the work for injuries, so be careful
     
  8. chlorox

    chlorox Blue Belt

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    I get the feeling that standing small joint manipulation is not as effective because of freedom of movement (unless you corner someone). Fighting in the ground takes away a lot of mobility options which make it more suitable for a grappling rather than striking solution.

    Of course, just because it wouldn't work on a trained fighter doesn't invalidate it on the street. It could be more useful than punching the average guy on the street.
     
  9. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I think they probably work well if you're a big guy using them against drunks, but they are bs against a trained fighter in a fighter stance. Certainly nobody has ever been able to use them in MMA to my knowledge. Grabbing an arm is about as much as you're likely to get.

    Would be interested to hear from people who've tried this in sparring ... I've read some of the aikido boards before where aikido guys have talked about sparring with wrestlers/strikers, and they seem to feel that some of their ground techniques can work well, but they have real problems getting anything off standing. The jab, underhooks, and double legs just have no good counters for an aikido guy.
     
  10. MN-KungFu

    MN-KungFu Guest

    in my kung fu school we do alot of stand up joint manipulation, some of the stuff can get pretty painful, to a point where any further u could easily break a arm or wrist. my kung fu school has so many mixed arts into it, which is why i go there. some days its all ahikido or jujitsu or muay ti. others its the traditional kung fu. in a real fight situation manipulation could work if u caught one of there punches, otherwise all the others i know are from when someone is grabbing u.
     
  11. JANUS-4

    JANUS-4 Banned Banned

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    It is all relative to the amount of training and/or experience you have in joint manipuation, a lot of schools teach joint manipulation in some self defence situations, and a lot teach strikes, both are equally efective depending on the cicumstances.
     
  12. Shiroryuu

    Shiroryuu Blue Belt

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    I think there are standing submissions in shootboxing, and some Japanese guy used one to beat his opponent in a recent shooto match.

    Yes, they have standing submissions in shootboxing. I saw a cool arm triangle recently.
     
  13. VagabondMusashi

    VagabondMusashi Banned Banned

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    I train in small joint manipulation in my Kung Fu class and have done so for five years now. I realize that hapkido is great at that as opposed to aikido being passive. However, I disagree with whomever says that joint manipulation ( in real life mostly wrist manipulation, though some finger work is done) is not effective because it isn
     
  14. Matt

    Matt Titanium Belt

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    Did anyone else notice Mike Tyson doing this in his last fight against Kevin McBride?
     
  15. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yeah, he tried to break his arm. Doesn't he know that the only arm-breaking maneuver you can do standing is the flying armbar? And somehow I find the idea of Tyson doing a flying armbar a bit improbable.

    Btw nice sig Rexholio, I love that quote.
     
  16. Leviathan333

    Leviathan333 Robot

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    If it was that easy to grab peoples wrist/hand, before getting clocked, then you'd be able to parry every boxers attempt to punch you, instead of covering up.

    Yeah, doesn't happen.

    And isn't it always some guy's 'teacher' in some 'street fight'
     
  17. True2KungFu

    True2KungFu King Of No Pants

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    did alot of them back in kung fu, many of the simpler ones were quite easy to do and very effective, even so simple as a parry turning into a wrist grab to set up a strike, let alone some other cool stuff. Many of the standing moves i have efectively used in ground fighting too.
     
  18. funkgsus

    funkgsus Orange Belt

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    the reason why small joint manipulation isn't in MMA is because A) they are wearing gloves and B)It is agaisnt the rules... just think, if u could get away with a wrist lock or finger lock and break that joint, u would win instantly. Joint locks in a stand up fight are great, you just got to get in range where you can get in close, like when u grab each other and pull it off there. If you go to grab a punch, good luck because you are just gonna get knocked out although I have seen it done sparring but the guy trained like 7 years so ...
     
  19. stryker505

    stryker505 Blue Belt

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    It's been my experience that joint manipulations go out the window when confronted with an actively resisting opponent.
     
  20. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    First of all, wrist locks are legal. They're just incredibly hard to get, but very occasionally you will see somebody get one and finish a fight. Second, small joint manipulation is against the rules more because it's disgusting -- you would break fingers and toes left and right -- than because it would finish a fight. You can fight on through that kind of stuff.

    But regardless of whether it's legal or not, nobody has ever subbed anyone standing with a wrist lock in an MMA event to my knowledge, and fingers would be even harder. Nobody is going to let you grab their hands standing; they just won't. It doesn't work if the other guy is resisting.
     

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