Joint Health (Preventative)

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by XTrainer, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. XTrainer

    XTrainer Red Belt

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    I tried posting a thread like this about a year ago, but it didn't really go anywhere, I'm hoping with some new knowledge/new blood on the forums we can make something of this.

    Basically, I'm free of joint problems right now, but I want to make sure I stay that way so I can keep training well into the future. How can I further this cause through nutrition and supplementation?

    Here's some thoughts to get things started:

    Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM: Seem effective in treating joint pain, but can they work at all in a preventative capacity?

    Calcium: I've never thought supplementation was necessary for someone who sticks to a sound diet, am I wrong here? Should athletes be supplementing additional calcium?

    Cissus: Lots of anecdotal evidence of effectiveness, but the fact that no one knows HOW it works and the fact that it involves some sort of hormonal action bothers me somewhat.

    Shark Cartilage: Basically comes down to additional calcium and phosphorus, right?

    Fish Oils (Omega-3s): I think the verdict is pretty much in on these. Pretty sure we're all taking them already.
     
  2. There is no factual evidence on G/Ch/MSM nor Cissus. I've tried both and felt no difference, unfortunately. If anyone gets a placebo effect from them, lucky you.

    Shark Cartilage is just hyped calcium, IMO.

    You do need to seek out calcium, but not supplement it. This means upping the cottage cheese in your diet versus popping poorly absorbed white pills.

    If you're not on the Fish Oil already, get the fuck outta the forum.
     
  3. Samurai Jack

    Samurai Jack faixa roxa

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    are there any supplements that repair damaged joints?

    my hips are making cracking grinding sound when I move them. thanks.
     
  4. TX911

    TX911 Guest

    my joint problems became a thing of the past after my fish oil intake went up to 12 grams a day.

    the osteo biflex stuff was too expensive but it helped a little.
     
  5. XTrainer

    XTrainer Red Belt

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    I beg to differ on the bolded part. If you search around PubMed, you'll find some compelling studies (and yes, some not-so-compelling).

    Also, for the sake of discussion, there is some evidence that calcium from dairy is not readily absorbed.
     
  6. Vedic

    Vedic Purple Belt

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    Cissus helped me plenty. I think the key to joints etc is to stay healthy and mobile. I do a "warrior wellness" type of routine daily, and it helped a lot. In fact it is the only product of his I ever liked.
     
  7. TopCat

    TopCat The Most Tip-top

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    In addition to the supps do you engage in a joint targeting physical drills? I... "procured" a copy of Superjoints by Pavel and have been giving it a go every other morning. Can't say I've noticed much, but it's a quick and fairly proprioreceptive exercise so it doesn't hurt.
     
  8. physicaltherapy

    physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM: Seem effective in treating joint pain, but can they work at all in a preventative capacity?

    I think the studies are 50/50 on glucosamine, at least that what consumer reports tells me. I think we need a good lit review on the effectiveness of glucosamine. I still take 'em though, bouts of 6 weeks whenever I have knee pain.

    Calcium: I've never thought supplementation was necessary for someone who sticks to a sound diet, am I wrong here? Should athletes be supplementing additional calcium?

    I thought calcium absorption is very hormone regulated (i.e. it doesn't matter how much calcium you ingest, your body will absorb whatever it wants). Also, I don't know how effective calcium absorption is without Vitamin D. Also, synovial membranes, (if I remember correctly) in joints are calcium free. Synovial membranes are what keeps your (synovial) joints healthy. There is no direct supply of blood in joints. It receives its nutrition from synovial fluid, a product of synovial membrane, which circulates via movement of the joints. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synovial_membrane#Structure. Maintaining your flexibility should help with general joint health. I've seen a fair amount of middle-older age people with mild to moderate hip arthritis. I do joint mobilizations, hip stretches, and hip pendulums on them and they seem to get better.



    Cissus: Lots of anecdotal evidence of effectiveness, but the fact that no one knows HOW it works and the fact that it involves some sort of hormonal action bothers me somewhat.

    Don't know shit about this one.....

    Shark Cartilage: Basically comes down to additional calcium and phosphorus, right?

    .....or this one

    Fish Oils (Omega-3s): I think the verdict is pretty much in on these. Pretty sure we're all taking them already.

    ....and everyone should be taking fish oils already
     
  9. MikeMartial

    MikeMartial Black Belt

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    What's your daily total of combined EPA/DHA with that dose?
     
  10. TX911

    TX911 Guest

    3.6 gms

    i'm thinking of getting a more concentrated oil as well and possibly upping even more.

    my plan is to actually turn into a fish since i'm currently training for a triathlon and the swim is knocking my time back
     
  11. Valgarv

    Valgarv Guest

    Are you sure you were taking an adequate dosing and consistently? The stuff doesn't just work over night. It takes about 3-4 weeks and most companies tell you to take less than effective amounts.
     
  12. MikeMartial

    MikeMartial Black Belt

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    Training for a triathlon? Very cool, I thought you were just a gym rat.
     
  13. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That's actually pretty untrue. The problem isn't the lack of evidence, it's the lack of exposure on things like dosing, or quality of sources. MSM is an anti-inflammatory, so is Cissus, and they both do reduce inflammation. Glucosamine/Chond is trickier, as there's scrutiny on grades and dosing.

    But please, don't say there's no evidence, then state an anecdote that pertains only to you as a gauge by which others should go. For every you that didn't feel anything and points to placebo effect, there are those who "feel something" and point to the product.

    The main thing to remember is that connective tissue takes forever to heal. And if one is going to damage it, they have to deal with that. Make sure rest days aren't stressful on the joints, don't overdo NSAIDS (like ibuprofin), and know how to train properly to prevent unnecessary joint damage.
     
  14. T.J.T

    T.J.T Green Belt

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    This is a bit OT but does Fish oil thin your blood to some Extent? Just wondering if taking large doses of it would help with inflamation?

    Ive had some sore spots on the outside of my shins from kicking and catching knees, so im wondering if taking more fishoil would help, i currently take the dose they recommend on the bottle. I also take the G/ch/MSM 3 times a day.

    Felt this was kinda on topic with the thread, not trying to hijack it.
     
  15. XTrainer

    XTrainer Red Belt

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    Fish oil is certainly anti-inflammatory.
     
  16. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yes and yes. Fish Oil is anti-inflammatory, but you have to be careful because too much of it and you'll bruise and bleed easily.

    The complex I use is Preventative Nutrition's Enjoint. Good blend of joint care products, plus the oils. I also like systemic enzymes such as Wobenzym or Rejuvezym. There's also a nice little product called Ligatend.
     
  17. T.J.T

    T.J.T Green Belt

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    Thanks ill probably up my fish oil amount to start, im only taking one teaspoon in the morning as its directed, thats only 18%EPA/12%DHA. Im sure i can handle more as ive seen many people taking way more. Ill keep an eye on the bruising and bleeding.
     
  18. T.J.T

    T.J.T Green Belt

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    I dont have a scale, how many ml is 12 grams? not that ill jump to that amount right now, but i see a lot of people refer to fish oil in grams instead of ml. does 1ml = 1g or close too it for fish oil?
     
  19. Vedic

    Vedic Purple Belt

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    Cissus quadrangularis

    Cissus quadrangularis is an ancient medicinal plant native to the hotter parts of Ceylon and India. It was prescribed in the ancient Ayurvedic texts as a general tonic and analgesic, with specific bone fracture healing properties. Modern research has shed light on Cissus' ability to speed bone healing by showing it acts as a glucocorticoid antagonist (1,2). Since anabolic/androgenic compounds are well known to act as antagonists to the glucocorticoid receptor as well as promote bone growth and fracture healing, it has been postulated that Cissus possesses anabolic and/or androgenic properties (1,3). In addition to speeding the remodeling process of the healing bone, Cissus also leads to a much faster increase in bone tensile strength. In clinical trials Cissus has led to a fracture healing time on the order of 55 to 33 percent of that of controls. That cissus exerts antiglucocorticoid properties is suggested by a number of studies where bones were weakend by treatment with cortisol, and upon administration of Cissus extract the cortisol induced weakening was halted, and the healing process begun.

    While the increased rate of bone healing may be of great significance to persons suffering from chronic diseases like osteoporosis (4), the antiglucocorticoid properties of Cissus are likely of much more interest to the average bodybuilder or athlete, since endogenous glucocorticoids, particularly cortisol, are not only catabolic to bone, but catabolize muscle tissue as well. Numerous studies over the years have suggested that glucorticoids, including the body's endogenous hormone cortisol activate pathways that degrade not only bone, but skeletal muscle tissue as well. A recently published report documented exactly how glucocorticoids (including cortisol) induce muscle breakdown: They activate the so-called ubiquitin-proteasome pathway of proteolysis (5). This pathway of tissue breakdown is important for removing damaged and non-functional proteins. However, when it is overactive during periods of elevated cortisol (e.g disease states, stress, and overtraining) excess amounts of normal tissue are broken down as well. By exerting an anabolic, antiglucorticoid effect cissus helps preserve muscle tissue during times of physical and emotional stress.

    Although the bulk of the research on Cissus centers around bone healing, the possibility exists that Cissus may act to improve bone healing it may improve the healing rate of connective tissue in general, including tendons. If this is the case it would be of great benefit to bodybuilders and athletes.

    Besides the above-mentioned properties of Cissus, the plant is also rich in the vitamins/antioxidants vitamin C and beta-carotene. As analyzed, Cissus quadrangularis contained ascorbic acid 479 mg, and carotene 267 units per 100g of freshly prepared paste in addition to calcium oxalate (6).

    The typical recommended daily dosage of Cissus extract is between 100 and 500 mg, depending on the concentration of the extract and the severity of symptoms. For the powder of the dried plant, the Ayurvedic texts recommend a dosage of 3 to 6 grams to accelerate fracture healing. Safety studies in rats showed no toxic effects at dosages as high as 2000 mg/kg of body weight. So not only is Cissus efficacious, it is also quite safe, in either the dried powder form or the commercially available extract.

    Cissus also possess analgesic properties on a mg per mg basis comparable to aspirin or anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen. Cissus quadrangularis constitutes one of the ingredients of an Ayurvedic preparation, `Laksha Gogglu', which has been proved to be highly effective in relieving pain, reduction of swelling and promoting the process of healing of the simple fractures as well as in curing the allied disorders associated with fractures (7). The mechanism through which Cissus exerts its analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties has not been well characterized. It may act centrally, but the anti-inflammatory features suggest that it acts by preventing the conversion of arachidonic acid to inflammatory prostaglandins.


    1) Chopra SS, Patel MR, Awadhiya RP. Studies of Cissus quadrangularis in experimental fracture repair : a histopathological study Indian J Med Res. 1976 Sep;64(9):1365-8

    2) Chopra SS, Patel MR, Gupta LP, Datta IC. Studies on Cissus quadrangularis in experimental fracture repair: effect on chemical parameters in blood Indian J Med Res. 1975 Jun;63(6):824-8.

    3) PRASAD GC, UDUPA KN. EFFECT OF CISSUS QUADRANGULARIS ON THE HEALING OF CORTISONE TREATED FRACTURES. Indian J Med Res. 1963 Jul;51:667-76.

    4) Shirwaikar A, Khan S, Malini S. Antiosteoporotic effect of ethanol extract of Cissus quadrangularis Linn. on ovariectomized rat. J Ethnopharmacol. 2003 Dec;89(2-3):245-50.

    5) Combaret L, Taillandier D, Dardevet D, Bechet D, Ralliere C, Claustre A, Grizard J, Attaix D Glucocorticoids regulate mRNA levels for subunits of the 19 S regulatory complex of the 26 S proteasome in fast-twitch skeletal muscles. Biochem J. 2004 Feb 15;378(Pt 1):239-46.

    6) Chidambara Murthy KN, Vanitha A, Mahadeva Swamy M, Ravishankar GA. Antioxidant and antimicrobial activity of Cissus quadrangularis L. J Med Food. 2003 Summer;6(2):99-105.

    7) Panda, J Res Ayurv Siddha, 1990, 11, 7
     
  20. TX911

    TX911 Guest

    nah, i'm too competitive to just be a gym rat. I'll do the mini-triathlon in July. Trying to balance that and our baseball schedule is a bitch
     

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