Joe Calzaghe

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by zaggers77**, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. zaggers77**

    zaggers77** Black Belt

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    Just wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on him. I haven't really heard anything negative or positive on him since I really don't watch boxing that much.

    I mean he did beat two legends but out of their primes, one way out of his prime, but he did stay at a higher level than them.

    And do boxing fans think that Calzaghe would have faired as well if both Hopkins and Jones Jr. if they were in their primes when they fought.

    Just what's your overall thoughts on Joe Calzaghe and go into some detail.

    Thanks.
     
  2. MC Paul Barman

    MC Paul Barman Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Hopkins prime wasn't when he was younger.
    His worth as a fighter and legend really jumped with wins over guys like Oscar and then Tarver and Pavlik.
    Calzaghe is wedged right between Tarver and Pavlik (with respects to Hopkins fights).

    I think Calzaghe is a great fighter.
    Clear cut wins over guys like Lacy, Kessler and Bika say alot about him.

    Very little orthodox about his style in the ring. People mock his punches but for almost having a %70 KO ratio those criticisms fall alittle flat.

    When he fought Lacy he did exactly what I thought he shouldn't do.... if he had any intentions of winning.
    People laugh at Lacy now, but they weren't laughing then. He fought Lacy in very close - took some of his big shots and avoided many other. His speed was one factor but the way he was throwing his shots was another entirely - Lacy had no idea how to respond.
    When people say "the 'fight' was beat out of him".... that's what I feel happened to Lacy afterwards.

    People have alot of respect for Bika. A highly avoided fighter (Allen Green thought better of getting in the ring with him..... because Bika would have won that fight). Alot of power and endless amounts of energy. This is a win for Calzaghe that is tantamount to money in the bank. As the years go by the win looks more and more impressive.

    With Kessler, Calzaghe showed how easily he can implement different strategies during the fight - and make it look seemless.


    Hopkins v Calzaghe at other points in Hopkins career? I still think Calzaghe beats him.
    People just weren't saying that much about Hopkins when he was beating Echols, Robert Allen and Simon Brown. Not that he wasn't good - but he just wasn't raved about.

    Jones v Calzaghe at other points in Jones career? In order for me to think that Calzaghe would have beaten him I would have to have seen it first. I think Calzaghe would be a much bigger test than a Glenn Kelly, Telesco, Harmon.... but, I think Jones still takes it. But.... Cal is still going to land something on Jones that will probably take him out of his game. I really don't know with this one.
     
  3. zaggers77**

    zaggers77** Black Belt

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    Thank you fine sir, made some good points.
     
  4. njackets

    njackets Blue Belt

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    A prime RJJ at SMW possibly stops Calzaghe, a prime BHop gets a SD over a prime Calzaghe. I think certain boxing fans for whatever reason have it in for Joe and like to play down his career and achievments.
     
  5. TheRatman

    TheRatman Brown Belt

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    1. You left out Trinidad and anybody that beat Trinidad automatically get launch into the P4P greatest of Alltime talk, cause he was the greatest to ever step in a ring and to hold a win over him speaks volume for you own greatest. :D

    2. While people weren't raving about his wins at MW when he was younger, he fought different back then. Much more aggressive and try to finish off guys instead of just running out the clock. So, I think the result might have been different, with him getting a win over Joe. By being able to meet fire with fire, and I have never seen anyone be able to beat up hopkins, yes they got wins over him but not beat him up, which Joe is very good at.(beating down his opponents)
     
  6. Flboycanscrap2

    Flboycanscrap2 Purple Belt

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    Joe Calzaghe is definitely one of my favorite boxers ever. Beautiful movement and hand speed and a grinder-esque style through ridiculous volume of punches and stamina. The only slight I have against him is that I think he retired to early and could have been the longest remain champion ever and surpassed Marciano's record.
     
  7. Bob Dole

    Bob Dole White Belt

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    Based on achievements, probably the best super middleweight of all time. H2H I would pick RJJ to beat him by wide UD. Jones jr's superior handspeed and foot movement would prove too much for Calzaghe imo.
     
  8. consortium11

    consortium11 Slip The Jab

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    I think I've posted this before... but

    I don't see how anyone can say that Joe Calzaghe isn't the best supermiddleweight the world has ever seen.

    That's not to say he's the best boxer to ever compete at 168lbs. Off the top of my head Hearns, Leonard, Toney and Roy Jones all passed through the division and even as a fan I struggle to put Calzaghe higher than any of them (Toney you might perhaps have a weak arguement... the rest... no chance). But that's exactly the point... they passed through... Calzaghe stayed and dominated. His career at 168lbs is unmatched.

    People point to his record as a criticism... and that's true. 168lbs is a relatively new weightclass and until recently held little prestige or money. Fighter's stopped off there but far more often they either stayed at 160lbs or went straight to 175lbs. Toney and Jones had what... 3 fights in the division each? Something along those lines. 168lbs was not a division of killers. In addition look at the 3 long term belt holders; Calzaghe, Ottke and (to a certain extent) Kessler. All 3 were Europeans who rarely got on US TV. All drew big crowds and big money in their own countries. What real incentive was there for them to search out the big fights? Add in Warren's let's say "conservative" matchmaking and Calzaghe has a pretty record without much weight behind it. That said, I feel US fans and pundits often overlook European talent.

    His record does deserve another look. On the surface it is very pretty... undefeated, long title reigns etc etc. Critics say the record is deceiving as to his actual skills... mutton dressed as lamb, a pig in a dress. I agree... but not in the way they think. I suggest that Calzaghe's skills and talent are better than his record. As mentioned above despite the superficial brilliance of it, his record isn't particularly deep. But Calzaghe with his relentless work rate, solid chin, underrated power (even with the slapping and certainly prior to it), ability to work the angles and adapt on the fly, would be a challenge to any fighter who ever stood across the ring from him. If he were to fight the greats of the 160 and 175lbs division I certainly don't think he'd emerge undefeated... but I think he'd pick up a scalp or two and be competitive with all of them; even a prime Jones who may have been the single best fighter to weight within the SMW limit on a single night. Would anyone in the Super 6 be favourite over Calzaghe? Stylewise do any of them even give him particular problems? The fighters who Calzaghe did struggle with were those who could severely restrict his workrate... and only Hopkins ever managed to really pull that off.

    But, back to the record...

    When people talk about Calzaghe's record it's often the omissions that get the most attention... and that leads to the talk of "ducking". Warren's matchmaking plays a part... Warren never saw a difficult fight he couldn't avoid... but there is some weight to the claim. Calzaghe signed to face Glen Johnson 3 times and pulled out on every occasion. Now Calzaghe was injury prone... his brittle hands turned him from a pretty decent power puncher to "Calslappy"... and perhaps that's the legitimate reason he never faced the Road Warrior. But still... 3 times? I think those who say Calzaghe ducked Johnson have a point. Let us not forget though that Hopkins himself avoided Calzaghe (and a huge payday) in the early 2000's, signing and pulling out of the fight as part of a deal with Showtime. Calzaghe may have ducked opponents... but few were willing to travel to Wales to face him anyway.

    The "Calslappy" thing raises another point... another thing Calzaghe did that few other boxers could. He changed his whole style as his body broke down... much like Hopkins himself. He may be derided for it but his fast stinging style brought him success... perhaps more than crafty veteran Hopkins is actually a better fighter than the 160lbs destroyer Hopkins early in his career. I don't think that Hopkins beats Pavlik... we know what veteran Hopkins did to the Ghost...

    So, in conclusions... better fighters may have competed at 168lbs... but not for the length of time Calzaghe did. His record is pretty but lacks depth... but his skills were enough to give anyone a hard night's work. He may have avoided fighters... but fighters avoided him. As his career closed out he stepped it up a notch in the way Ottke (his closest contender) never did... he faced a supposed monster in Lacy and destroyed him, ruining a once promising career (Lacy had his flaws before Calzaghe whooped him... but the sad shell we've seen since has been a pale imitation of the Lacy who tried to face the Welsh Dragon). He took on the supposed heir apparent at 168lbs, Kessler, and made a mockery of him. He then went up to 175, crossed the pond and took Hopkin's title away in the closest fight of his career. Then he fought Jones... a ghost of a man once great... clearly for money and so he could say he beat Roy Jones Jr. Then he retired, leaving Chad Dawson despondant. Oh, and he faced Manfredo, but the less said about that the better (it's one of the reasons that network TV in the UK ended a brief rekindling of it's romance with boxing after getting cheated on by Audley Harrison and the other UK Heavyweight pretenders).

    Let me finish by saying this though, directed to all the vehement critics and haters of Calzaghe. Lucian Bute is considered one of, if not the, best 168lbs fighter in the world today, even with the emergence of Ward in the Super 6. He hasn't had a major fight outside of Quebec... hell, he hasn't had a major fight outside of Montreal. In his 26 fight record he has only fought outside of Quebec 4 times (I think)... all within his first 15 fights or so. His record is buttressed by 2 wins (one controversial, one stunningly good) over Andrade... who is clearly good but I doubt is great... as well as solid wins over Berrio and Bika (who Calzaghe beat just as convincingly in a dirty, ugly fight). Outside of that... Joppy in 2008? Zuniga? Miranda in 2010? Obviously Bute is earlier in his fistic journey than Calzaghe was when he faced top names... 7 years in Calzaghe was likewise a belt holder but was facing the likes of Omar Shieka and Richie Woodhall... but there is a certain similarity there. I don't know... perhaps when the Super 6 ends and opponents are freed up his competition will increase. Perhaps not. I don't know why he wasn't in the Super 6... I know a lot of people decried it at the time. Perhaps Showtime never asked him, perhaps he was tied to a rival broadcaster, perhaps he wanted too much money, perhaps he didn't like the idea of being forced to fight outside Montreal and the 10's of thousands he can pack in. But history will say that went the best supermiddleweights went to war, Bute was happy to pick at Abraham and Ward's scraps.

    And now he's happy to face Jesse Brinkly... a man who 3 years ago got smashed by Joey Spina and beaten by Robin Reid...

    And that's not too different to how some people view Calzaghe's resume...
     
  9. Hagler

    Hagler Man of wealth and taste

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    I don't see B-Hop having an easy time with Joe, even a prime B-Hop (which is what, like, 40 yrs old B-Hop?). Calzaghe's workrate secures the decision, and I dunno if Bernard's pop can take him out. I give RJJ a better chance to frustrate Cal, beat him to the punch all night, even stopping him late in the fight after a few good rights. A UD for RJJ would be the most likely. It all depends on Joe's ability to cut the ring and corner a prime RJJ, which was no easy task.
     
  10. njackets

    njackets Blue Belt

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    Thats a great post and I agree with pretty much all of it.
     
  11. Heebarican

    Heebarican White Belt

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    Joe Calzaghe is one of the best super middleweights of all time. I don't know if I'd say he's top 100 p4p, but he's sure as hell a first ballot hall of famer.
     
  12. dg43088

    dg43088 Guest

    I think calzaghe was a very good fighter who was never given the opportunity to prove he was one of the best fighters in the 160-175 pound range for a very long time. If he would have been given the opportunity to fight those guys 5 years earlier it would have really had a chance to prove he's an all time fighter. Right now i have a really tough time placing him personally because of the nonsense of being ducked for one reason or the next. (Money, location of the fight, weight class may have been an issue....)
     
  13. consortium11

    consortium11 Slip The Jab

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    I'm a big Calzaghe defender but it's not necessarily lack of opportunity that limited Calzaghe's opposition. While Hopkins did pull out of their first bout Calzaghe himself (with the aid of Warren) was fairly reticent about taking on top fighters for a long time. Notable was the fact he has signed to face Glen Johnson 3 times and pulled out due to "injury" (believe that if you will) 3 times.
     
  14. SPOOKHOLIDAE

    SPOOKHOLIDAE Blue Belt

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    Not as good as his record would indicate. Not a true warrior, did not fight toughest opponents or go after them. Can anyone say he really "beat" B-Hop, not very convincing to me.
     

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