Jiu Jitsu in the Olympics. (long read with info on where we stand)

[Supereem]

In short:

The rules will be changed (probably way beforehand) to make it more crowd pleasing, i.e give more points for submission attempts or something. This could potentially ruin the sport big time.

The modern Olympics are dumb as hell anyway, the whole purpose of bringing back the pan-Hellenic religious festival was to make the French tougher, which is retarded.

 

[Doughbelly]

The broad overview of what needs to happen is:

1. International Governing Body (done)

Not recognized as an IF by SportAccord (formerly GAISF), so this is the same as not done.

2. A satisfactory number of national Governing Bodies (in progress)

Number one still isn't done, but the numbers for this point are 75 NGBs for men, 40 for women across four continents. IBJJF still has at least a decade to go here.

4. Be a recognized sport by the IOC. This may be realized by first being an unofficial demonstration sport. Though demonstration sports have been officially eliminated from the Olympics, in Beijing Wushu was held as a parallel event with the IOC's blessing which lead to them being recognized as a sport by the IOC. A recognized sport is a sport that could potentially be included in the Olympics. Currently there are only 34 recognized sports (that are not already included)

SportAccord IFs first participate at the major international/regional multisport games - Asian Games, Pan Ams, FISU, CISM, then World Games. To my knowledge, IBJJF has never had any level of participation at any of the major GAISF games. This is a DECADES long process.

Here's a link to the SportAccord Combat Games. At the bottom, you will find links to all the participatory IFs. Do you see IBJJF there?

http://sports.tom.com/combatbeijing2010/

Over the past few decades, I've seen judo slowly devolve into something that I no longer recognize and the IJF's relationship with the IOC has played a huge part in that. The very LAST thing BJJ needs is involvement in the Olympic Games.

That said, you don't have to worry much because it isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I just think that before we ask "Can we?" we should ask "Why do we want to? What do we gain/lose?"

 

[TrumpetDan]

So the olympics require all sports IF's be apart of SportAccord specifically? Do you know the history of that relationship?

 

[206warrior]

I'm fine with how BJJ is set up now, mundials and ADCC being the top level, or olympic level if you will. I don't want rule changes just to fit the outline of what the olympic committee wants.

 

[Thalion]

So the olympics require all sports IF's be apart of SportAccord specifically? Do you know the history of that relationship?

SportAccord is the union of all the international sports federation, Olympic and not-olympic

Is the highest governing body for the sports federation

 

[joe90210]

if BJJ ever becomes an olympic sport, it'll be a LONG time from now, if Karate can't manage to get into the Olympics, then BJJ sure as hell won't. Besides, what would be the point? The current landscape would have Brazil winning 99% of the medals and the US winning 1 or 2

 

[Doughbelly]

So the olympics require all sports IF's be apart of SportAccord specifically? Do you know the history of that relationship?

SportAccord is the new 'brand' of what used to be GAISF, the General Association of International Sporting Federations.

As far as the IOC is concerned, if the sport's IF isn't a part of SportAccord, then it is not a legitimate sport worthy of consideration for inclusion in the Games.

SportAccord recognition is step number one, period.

Then comes inclusion in the major multi-sport internationals, starting with the Military Games, University Games, World Games so on. After about a decade of demonstrating good governance and participation, then comes serious consideration for a parallel event in an Olympic year. Not before.

And that's not even including the amount of politics behind a new Olympic event at a time when the IOC is desperately trying to reduce the size of the Games. It's simply not going to happen.

 

[georgejjr]

Super,

I often hear people claim that the Olympics ruined judo. It seems to me that the original rules of judo - and their continued evolution prior to the Olympics - seemed to play far more of a influence of the elimination of groundwork than the Olympics. I am legitimately asking specifically how the Olympics made ground work suffer?

In the late 80's the IOC made it clear to the IJF that if judo didn't become more popular for TV broadcasts it would be taken out of the Olympics. It was at that time that the quick standup (before whole judo matches took place on the ground) was introduced. The difference was dramatic. Watch tapes of Neil Adams (easily found on Youtube) winning the world championships in 81, you'll see him winning most of his matches by submissions, often after minutes on the ground, in situations which would have been called immediate mate (ie standup) today.

Besides the quick standup, the IOC concerns were also responsible for shorter matches (used to be 15 minutes, down to 5 lest viewers get bored), the non-combativity penalties which mean you have to try a throw every 20 seconds whether the opportunity was there or not (Kimura's comment was that 5 minutes was only long enough to smoke a cigarette (different times :icon_chee) or read a newspaper. It also led to huge politicisation of judo.

If you go to judo sites, you'll read a lot of old-time judoka expressing the opinion that getting into the Olympics was the worst thing to ever happen to judo.

 

[J Sho]

I am surprised that for all the talk of getting BJJ into the Olympics, neither the CBJJO (as was), CBJJE, IBJJF/CBJJ or JJ Int have never tried to take steps to better position BJJ for inclusion. Just of the top of my head these 3 would be pretty key:

*Development of BJJ in other countries (esp Africa, Asia, rest of South America, South East Asia, Eurasia).
*Development of the sport for women
*Implementation of a doping policy

It will be very difficult for any sport to get in the olympics from now on.

The only way i see another grappling sport to get in the olympics is that FILA take out a couple of weight class from freestyle and greco and put some Grappling weight classes in it (the amount of the athletes must be the same).

people often say that (i thought it as well) but then on reflection, sports like cycling, diving and swimming have ridiculous numbers of categories, so tbh it shouldnt be that crazy to shoehorn in grappling as a third style.

 

[Doughbelly]

If you go to judo sites, you'll read a lot of old-time judoka expressing the opinion that getting into the Olympics was the worst thing to ever happen to judo.

Younger guys such as myself who haven't drank too much of the Kool Aid are convinced of the same. I was a kid in the 80s and never thought too much about this politics and rules changes until the 90s, when I was an active competitor.

10 years ago, I was absolutely convinced that judo would swing back into balance considering the massive demand there was for grappling from the general population. Not only did the IJF fail to recognize and take advantage of this market demand, they dug themselves deeper into a completely irrecoverable hole.

I'm done with judo. When I get back from Haiti, I'm going BJJ. Should have pursued that path long ago instead of trying to work within a system that I knew was doomed.

*Development of BJJ in other countries (esp Africa, Asia, rest of South America, South East Asia, Eurasia).

Africa's a lost cause. An IF only needs four continents of participation. NA, SA, EU, Asia. Maybe AU.

Who's going to develop Africa? I've taught judo all over east and central Africa. The difficulty of sports development in Africa is monumental, even if you had the money and personnel resources to do it. In the past decade, I've probably dumped well over five figures of my personal funds into judo development in East Africa alone. What's there to show for it? Absolutely nothing. Shit falls apart as soon as you leave, end of story.

*Implementation of a doping policy

Hahaha. Wait.... AHAHAHAHAH.

people often say that (i thought it as well) but then on reflection, sports like cycling, diving and swimming have ridiculous numbers of categories, so tbh it shouldnt be that crazy to shoehorn in grappling as a third style.

There's really only two umbrellas that BJJ could come in under. IJF or FILA. The former is a non starter. The latter won't happen because IJF will sabotage every effort that happens on the FILA side. Remember when Sambo was a FILA style? Strongest resistance for greater inclusion? IJF.

Really, fuck IJF.

 

[J Sho]

iirc FILA/SAMBO had bigger issues in as much as there already was a world governing body (FIAS) and FILA couldn;t attract any of the hardcore sambo countries to it.

Hahaha. Wait.... AHAHAHAHAH.
.

agreed, but without it this whole discussion is a non starter.

agreed re Africa. is there any BJJ anywhere outside of SA and angola?

There's really only two umbrellas that BJJ could come in under. IJF or FILA. The former is a non starter. The latter won't happen because IJF will sabotage every effort that happens on the FILA side. Remember when Sambo was a FILA style? Strongest resistance for greater inclusion? IJF.

Really, fuck IJF.

and bear in mind sports jiu jitsu (the red headed stepchild of point karate and judo) under the JJIF is already an IOC recognised sport, so they wouldn;t be happy about it either.

 

[Doughbelly]

iirc FILA/SAMBO had bigger issues in as much as there already was a world governing body (FIAS) and FILA couldn;t attract any of the hardcore sambo countries to it.

Sambo occupies a funny niche, even in the former Soviet republics. Any and all serious sambo competitors from the "hardcore" sambo countries are almost always the serious judo guys and they don't care what events the medals are coming from, so long as the medals are coming in. How many sambo International Master of Sports are there who don't also have judo A points?

In the 90s and early 2000s, I tried my hand at various US sambo comps on the east coast. Same faces from the upper level judo comps. I like the discipline - I think it provides the best balance of overall grappling, yet for the foreseeable future will always remain a niche discipline.

agreed, but without it this whole discussion is a non starter.

Honestly, I think this whole discussion is a non starter.

agreed re Africa. is there any BJJ anywhere outside of SA and angola?

Off hand, there's two clubs I knew of in COMESA. One in Kigali and one in Nairobi. Both run by NA/EU expats. Probably fell apart as soon as the UN/NGO guys who were running them left after their end of in-country contracts.

A pointless exercise, really. Every really underdeveloped country's international caliber athletes live abroad. A real, in-country sports development program takes enormous inputs. Even the IJF with their budget can't maintain functioning programs in countries that have produced Olympic qualified athletes. IBJJF? Be real. They don't even have a SportAccord recognized IF. Not gonna happen.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

Good discussion guys.

I imagine it would be very hard to develop BJJ in African countries as well, or any real poor country to be more precise.

Even in Shanghai (which is closer to a developed country than to the rest of China, in some respscts) the start was very slow. Even now, the majority of people training are foreigners.

 

[Rod1]

Good discussion guys.

I imagine it would be very hard to develop BJJ in African countries as well, or any real poor country to be more precise.

Even in Shanghai (which is closer to a developed country than to the rest of China, in some respscts) the start was very slow. Even now, the majority of people training are foreigners.

You realize Brazil is a poor country right? So its Mexico with boxing, Thailand with Muay Thai, Eastern European countries with wrestling, judo etc, Mongolia with judo and sumo etc etc.

What it takes is a change of paradigm in the BJJ guys trying to open dojos, if they come with the "american plan" they will fall on their butts.

 

[nni]

You realize Brazil is a poor country right? So its Mexico with boxing, Thailand with Muay Thai, Eastern European countries with wrestling, judo etc, Mongolia with judo and sumo etc etc.

What it takes is a change of paradigm in the BJJ guys trying to open dojos, if they come with the "american plan" they will fall on their butts.

There is so much wrong in your post. Just keep quiet.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

You realize Brazil is a poor country right? So its Mexico with boxing, Thailand with Muay Thai, Eastern European countries with wrestling, judo etc, Mongolia with judo and sumo etc etc.

What it takes is a change of paradigm in the BJJ guys trying to open dojos, if they come with the "american plan" they will fall on their butts.

Brazil is not even close to the poverty levels of China or many African countries, not even remotely.

All the other examples you mentioned, developed the art either out of tradition (Thailand) or out of political sponsorship (Eastern Europe, Mongolia). Also Boxing is different, because every has been doing it anyway, everywhere.

The second point of your post, I don't even understand, sorry.

 

[Rod1]

Brazil is not even close to the poverty levels of China or many African countries, not even remotely.

Never been to Shanghai or rural Brazil right? Brazil still has a lower per capita income than Mexico.

The income level of Shanghai its not that different from Rio.

All the other examples you mentioned, developed the art either out of tradition (Thailand) or out of political sponsorship (Eastern Europe, Mongolia). Also Boxing is different, because every has been doing it anyway, everywhere.

Since when did mongolia had political sponsorship? they had been doing wrestling since forever same with a lot of exsoviet block countries.

The second point of your post, I don't even understand, sorry.

There is a different approach to spreading MAs in a poor country than a rich country, unless you want to hang out in the rich urban areas. I have seen many MAs succeed in poor areas, Fadda for example teached in favelas. It just takes motivation from coach, from student and a goal.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

Never been to Shanghai or rural Brazil right? Brazil still has a lower per capita income than Mexico.

The income level of Shanghai its not that different from Rio.

Since when did mongolia had political sponsorship? they had been doing wrestling since forever same with a lot of exsoviet block countries.

There is a different approach to spreading MAs in a poor country than a rich country, unless you want to hang out in the rich urban areas. I have seen many MAs succeed in poor areas, Fadda for example teached in favelas. It just takes motivation from coach, from student and a goal.

So my username is ShanghaiBJJ and I have never been to Shanghai?? Yeah makes complete sense.

Please just stop arguing a silly point, you are making yourself look a little foolish, not last by using income (or even GDP) per capita as a poverty indicator.


This is contributing nothing to the thread really.

 

[Manatee]

Coming from a judoka, I hope BJJ never makes it. Look what happened to Judo. It will be altered and watered down in the name of "spectator friendliness".