Discussion in 'The War Room' started by ben236, Jan 14, 2015.
So, another example of:
'You can criticize Islam but not jews/blacks, and that's a double standard'?
They shoud not have arrested him, but Dieudonne is a piece of shit
For clarification, are you saying that Jewish people are a race?
No questioning holocaustianity. God will punish the unbelievers.
But seriously do they put people in jail in france for that? I know they do in some European countries.
What's the free speech scale look like in Europe anyway? How would the countries rank?
I have little time to worry about French hypocrisy when it comes to freedom of speech. I am more urgently concerned by the hypocrisy of North American universities when it comes to freedom of speech, all of which have extensive speech codes delineating the kinds of things that cannot be said.
For many decades, the American left was a bulwark for freedom of speech. That is no longer true. Lip service may be paid, but anyone advocating hate speech laws is not for freedom of expression, even in theory.
Waiting for extremist Hebrews / Christians to gun he and his colleagues down....oh wait....
Generally they are pretty strong on free speech, but there are two glaring exceptions: They have relatively strong laws against inciting 'racial hatred,' and some of them forbid Holocaust denial as a specific form of this.
There are complicated debates about both of these items. Holocaust denial laws, for example, make it seem like the gov't is hiding the truth, and legitimizes portraying Holocaust denial as a martyr cause. Whereas the American approach -- just point out that the denier is a complete piece of shit -- doesn't give them the honor of feeling a martyr.
Laws against inciting racial hatred are enforced, but by and large courts allow you to criticize the *beliefs* of any particular group, as long as you don't slam them on *racial* grounds. Michel Houellebecq, the French novelist, was prosecuted on a charge of inciting racial hatred because he called Islam the "stupidest of all religions." He was acquitted because his comments were explicitly directed at the *stupidity of a religion*, which can hardly be construed as racial hatred.
" Michel Houellebecq told a Paris court that his words had been twisted. "I have never displayed the least contempt for Muslims," he said, but added, "I have as much contempt as ever for Islam". "
Anti-Semitism is trickier because you will rarely see anybody criticize Jewish religion -- 99 times out of 100, it's not Judaism that people are taking issue with, it's Jews. And this is where our French comedian got slammed, by inventing and performing the "Quenelle," which is of course a modified nazi salute.
In the US, you are free to be a neo-nazi, but not so in Europe. They are extremely intolerant of nazi speech, under the theory that it is a type of racist hatred.
Is this the guy who came up with that arm gesture?
France has also arrested a huge number of people who were supposedly linked in some way to the attacks. Basically, what we are seeing is the state overreact in typical fashion.
Yes there is hypocrisy all round.
Dieudonne - He gets charged for making anti-Semitic comments, and now is being charged for alleged sympathy towards the attackers.
Charlie Hebdo - Fired that cartoonist for not apologizing for an alleged anti-Semitic cartoon. Now if a private company wants to fire someone then it isn't a violation of free speech but the guy won his case of unfair dismissal so clearly they broke the law and violated his right to free speech.
Holocaust denial - Is illegal in many European countries. Clear example of Violation of Free speech.
Hate speech laws in Britain and France - Both a violation of Free Speech.
Germany - Laws against displaying Nazi paraphernalia
It looks like it is really only the US that upholds Free Speech.
That could be the basis of a comedy routine : "I got no problem with judaism; It's jews that I got a problem with."
We have the strongest free speech laws, for sure. It's actually kind of amazing, and I wish more people knew how special the US is in this regard.
Where we fall flat, unfortunately, is in *freedom of the press*. That's where we get outpaced by many other countries.
Let's start from here, Judaism and Islam are religions, or ideologies depending on who you ask. The Holocaust was an actual crime against masses of Jews, Catholics, Serbs, Poles, GLBTs, gypsies, Russians and others. Critiquing a religion or ideology and denying that an actual crime against humanity occurred towards specific subsets of humanity are two completely different concepts. This kind of apples and oranges comparison is either delusional or a deliberate attempt to distort the discussion on free speech to silence opinions that would hurt the sensitivities of a victim class.
As a jew I think people should have the freedom to deny the holocaust or anything else. Free speech for everybody, arresting a comedian is absolute bullshit
Well, the other angle is that these laws against nazi speech are enforced as often because of *anti-muslim* neo-nazi speech as *anti-semitic* neo-nazi speech.
It's the nazism that tends to get you in trouble. Muslims are often quick to cry 'double standards for Jews,' but seem never to remember the times when anti-immigrant speakers are hit for their speech against Muslims. Example, Ms. Brigitte Bardot:
I agree with Daveb above that these 'hate speech' laws are regressive and should be thrown out. Unfortunately they remain wildly popular with the governing forces -- creating harmony amongst the masses and such.
At least with Germany itself, on the other hand, I can understand why they'd make a special exception for nazism and Holocaust denial; there's a unique urgency there. In other European nations, it seems like it helps legitimize something that deserves open contempt rather than suppression by state action.
Some of them seem to think so.
Thank you for the great response. Isn't violence in cinema censored as well in places? Doesn't the UK have some ban on showing martial arts weapons or something? I've never paid much attention to this stuff because I don't live there so it's not my concern.
Alot of Americans don't realize just how uniquely lucky they are in their constitutional freedom of speech.
Even up here in Canada we are not afforded the same protections. Not even close. However most Canadians probably assume we have the same right.
Why, when they have the power from the inside to get the results they desire?
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