JDS's TDD overatted or Cains takedowns underrated?

[ILikeDogging]

I love watching Cain's fighting style. He's so relentless and you see his opponents wilt beneath him. He's a fantastic fighter.

I also find it really interesting how he uses his wrestling to dominate fighters not wrestling/BJJ like the majority of even good wrestlers use. If you watch someone like Sonnen who has beast wrestling he uses in conjunction with traditional BJJ to dominate his opponents - you see less of that with Cain. I think part of that is at HW the fighters are generally less BJJ orientated (save Nog Mir etc.) and also Cain's style. Fantastic to watch.

 

[hobowarslover]

cain wasn't really looking to finish many of those singles, it's more of a way of tiring JDS out since he didn't want anything to do with Cain's top game (upright posture leaning against JDS during the single leg clinch)

 

[van1ty]

retarded thread.

cain couldn't take him down early on. JDS got taken down repeatedly because he was fucking exhausted -- and still managed to return to his feet every time.

 

[biggino]

cain only started taking him down after jr was rocked. and he got rocked because he was kept on getting shot at and got setup to eat a punch eventually. i wonder ifd this setup was intentinonal by cain or it just happened

 

[KJGould]

Cain Velasquez: Conditioning is his strongest hold

He also showed some great control and breakdowns with his mat wrestling. JDS did well to get back to his feet as much as he did, especially when that punch took most of the fight out of him in the first.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Junior's takedown defense looked excellent until he started slowing down and got rocked. He even reversed Cain at one point. It was the pressure that got to him. I still think Cain's takedowns aren't that great, he just tries landing them over and over and over until they succeed.

Pretty much this. JDS stuffed Cain's single attempts pretty easily until he got near-KOed by that right hand. It's a lot harder to stuff TDs when you're not really sure what year it is.

 

[luckyshot]

No.

If you look at the beginning of the fight when both guys were fresh and not hurt, what was Cain 1 for 7 in takedowns? And JDS popped right back up from that one?

Cain started getting takedowns after the first few minutes due to superior conditioning and relentlessness, not superior skills or athletecism.

 

[Calibur]

Lol @ conditioning not being considered athleticism

 

[KJGould]

Lol @ conditioning not being considered athleticism

I guess it's the misnomer that athleticism is only to do with fast twitch muscle fibers.

 

[thegreenblender]

No.

If you look at the beginning of the fight when both guys were fresh and not hurt, what was Cain 1 for 7 in takedowns? And JDS popped right back up from that one?

Cain started getting takedowns after the first few minutes due to superior conditioning and relentlessness, not superior skills or athletecism.

Cain got a huge takedown directly into sidemount when Junior was completely fresh. He actually kind of did a Parisyan and over-committed, bouncing just enough to allow JDS to scramble out (and I think Junior had to explode his ass off to make that happen). You make "popped back up" sound so effortless.

 

[thegreenblender]

All am saying is, what about that frickin single? Tired, not tired, whatever, few people have success with that takedown like Cain. So many MMA matches you see guys get deep singles and they can't get anywhere.

 

[ThinkGreen]

Pretty much this. JDS stuffed Cain's single attempts pretty easily until he got near-KOed by that right hand. It's a lot harder to stuff TDs when you're not really sure what year it is.

This. JDS was not the same fighter after he got rocked. He never really recovered.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

Wow what a crazy 5 round fight!!!!!!

Just wondering people's thoughts on the fight and the grappling? 11 Takedowns for Cain altho he was relentless is way more than JDS has ever been taken down!!!

Cains grappling and takedowns were the big difference (besides the pace and constant attack).

I know JDS just got his BB and he had some good ground work. Sweep to almost back take, nice sweep off a takedown, but overall he was pretty much out grappled by the AKA wrestling standout.

Not impressed with JDS's BJJ. We haven't seen much of it previously because he was rarely on his back but in this fight I never felt that Cain was ever in danger from Dos Santos' bottom game. The idea was always floated that he had a Big Nog like dangerous bottom game but that myth has been exposed.

Dos Santo's whole game seems to be escapes to his feet which you also have in wrestling and MMA and isn't specific to BJJ. You could say, well he was rocked but a high level BJJ guy will go to his guard through muscle memory or bottom game attacks like Big Nog always does when he gets rocked.

Dos Santos has decent wrestling TDD but it's not really used for counter offense but just to keep the fight standing. In other words he doesn't really make the guy pay for shooting by tiring him out or snapping him down to a headlock or his own takedown.

His entire strategy is based on keeping the fight standing (where he is supposed to have the advantage), with takedown defense to disengage and create space and a ground/bjj game to just escape to his feet.

However in this fight, Cain had the advantage standing, and on the takedowns, so the only really place Dos Santos could have capitalized is if he had a dangerous bottom game (which he didn't).

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

Also, I think overall high level wrestlers are Dos Santos kryptonite (not withstanding the first Cain fight KO where wrestling hardly entered the equation) since his bottom game is not very dangerous.

Division 1 All American Cain's wrestling is on another level than Division 2 Shane Carwin. And I suspect that Dos Santos would also have trouble with D1 Daniel Cormier.

 

[Cygnus-X]

He was stuffing takedowns and getting right up when he did get taken down even being battered and tired in the fifth round. Doubt many guys would be able to do that to Velasquez.

 

[luckyshot]

Lol @ conditioning not being considered athleticism

I guess it's the misnomer that athleticism is only to do with fast twitch muscle fibers.

Right. It might not be technically accurate, but it is common usage.

Cain got a huge takedown directly into sidemount when Junior was completely fresh. He actually kind of did a Parisyan and over-committed, bouncing just enough to allow JDS to scramble out (and I think Junior had to explode his ass off to make that happen). You make "popped back up" sound so effortless.

Nit picky bunch today, aren't we? Bottom line is that Cain's TD % was poor until JDS was hurt and/or gassed.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

He was stuffing takedowns and getting right up when he did get taken down even being battered and tired in the fifth round. Doubt many guys would be able to do that to Velasquez.

He wasted too much energy getting back up. That's why he was tired and gassed. He probably would have been better off recomposing guard if he wanted to take a breather and regain his energy.

 

[FIGHTING TALK]

Neither.

Why does something always have to be over or under rated?

Fans will just never understand what it is to be rocked and to try and perform something as complex as preventing a Cain Velasquez takedown.

The two fights were the epitome of what can happen in a sport as unpredictable as MMA.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

If they ever fight again, I bet JDS uses his jiu-jitsu more. He had a really solid half guard sweep to the back working in the first round. Cain stepped over and turned back on top, and after a few scrambles JDS was able to get up. If his gameplan was to go for leglocks or go all out for the sweep or the back instead of get up then I suspect he'd have a decent shot at landing one.

 

[Protectandserve]

I think Junior showed good grappling but ran out of gas. Cain tried for 33 take downs and landed 11. Part of what that tells me is Junior was not being held down even on the 1/3 he was taken down.